Keystone Not Working

General discussion regarding photography practices and Capture One workflow as well as integration with third party applications.
Please DO NOT post to this thread regarding OS specific concerns or questions.
Forum rules
For the sake of being thorough, please remember to note if you are using Mac or Windows.
Hopefully this will keep any confusion to a minimum.

Re: Keystone Not Working

Postby thomaskyhn » Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:23 pm

Ian3 wrote:I agree that the 4-way correction sometimes seems to work and sometimes doesn't. But if you only have two lines that need correction, why not use one of the 2 way options?

Ian


In the example, one of the two lines that needed correction was vertical, the other horizontal.
thomaskyhn
 
Posts: 166
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:50 pm
Location: CPH, DK

Re: Keystone Not Working

Postby thomaskyhn » Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:19 am

Here's another test, which makes it quite clear that keystone isn't working as it should.

Test image: https://i.imgur.com/dexZGjF.jpg

Adjustments:
Image

Result:
Image
thomaskyhn
 
Posts: 166
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:50 pm
Location: CPH, DK

Re: Keystone Not Working

Postby thomaskyhn » Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:27 pm

One more example that Capture One's keystone correction doesn't work properly.

Here's a detail of a photo of a window. The four adjustment points are placed in the four corners (and I've selected the keystone option that includes both vertical and horizontal correction). As you can see, the adjustment points are placed correctly:

Image

But after pressing Apply, the vertical lines are not quite vertical (the red lines are Capture One's guides):

Image

The same goes for the left side of the window frame. Rather than the rectangle you should have expected, the result is a slightly random parallelogram.

Here's an image that shows the outline of the window frame exactly as it is in the original photo: https://i.imgur.com/TjQGLmW.png – I get the same result with this file.

(And here's a copy of the original file: https://i.imgur.com/r0ebWTS.jpg).

Needless to say, this all works as it should in Lightroom (but if I had wanted to use Lightroom I wouldn't be writing here).

By the way, after waiting for more than two weeks I finally got a reply to a support request regarding keystone correction. But rather than address the issue, it implied that I didn't understand how keystone correction worked and said that I could use the adjustment sliders instead of the adjustment points. That's it.
thomaskyhn
 
Posts: 166
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:50 pm
Location: CPH, DK

Re: Keystone Not Working

Postby Ian3 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:52 pm

Interesting. I downloaded your original, and tried it for myself. My first attempt wasn't quite rectangular, but when I zoomed in to about 167%, I could see that I had not been ultra-precise in placing the handles. So I tried again placing them with great care, and it seems to have come out right. I've added guides and taken a screenshot. (I agree that at first sight it looks a little odd lower right, but you have to be careful to line up with the actual window frame and not the shadow below it. It has go the window frame right.)

(But I agree that with rather more extreme examples than your window, it does very odd things!)

Image

Ian
Ian3
 
Posts: 3514
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:52 pm
Location: Bristol, England

Re: Keystone Not Working

Postby thomaskyhn » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:06 pm

Ian3 wrote:Interesting. I downloaded your original, and tried it for myself. My first attempt wasn't quite rectangular, but when I zoomed in to about 167%, I could see that I had not been ultra-precise in placing the handles. So I tried again placing them with great care, and it seems to have come out right. I've added guides and taken a screenshot. (I agree that at first sight it looks a little odd lower right, but you have to be careful to line up with the actual window frame and not the shadow below it. It has go the window frame right.)

(But I agree that with rather more extreme examples than your window, it does very odd things!)

Image

Ian

Thanks for your comment. I've tried several times, zooming in as far as C1 allows, and the verticals still end up slightly slanted. I just tried again, and both sides of the window frame come out like in the image above, slightly slanted.
thomaskyhn
 
Posts: 166
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:50 pm
Location: CPH, DK

Re: Keystone Not Working

Postby Ian3 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:21 pm

Maybe I was lucky in the positioning of them. It is very sensitive to that.

Ian
Ian3
 
Posts: 3514
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:52 pm
Location: Bristol, England

Re: Keystone Not Working

Postby thomaskyhn » Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:14 pm

Ian3 wrote:Maybe I was lucky in the positioning of them. It is very sensitive to that.

Ian

Probably.

I really hope they'll do something about this keystone tool. In Lightroom it's so easy to use (though improvements are definitely possible), and the results are always predictable; I've never before seen anything like the – apparent – randomness of C1.
thomaskyhn
 
Posts: 166
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:50 pm
Location: CPH, DK

Re: Keystone Not Working

Postby David532 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:50 pm

Just a thought but I read a blog post (by the image quality professor?) a few years ago on the phase one web site about the philosophy behind the keystone tool. As I remember the gist of the post was that the tool is deigned for architectural correction and therefore does not do a full correction of the building leaning backwards look as that in itself looks false.

Dave
User avatar
David532
 
Posts: 342
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:31 pm
Location: Thornbury, Uk

Re: Keystone Not Working

Postby thomaskyhn » Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:19 pm

David532 wrote:Just a thought but I read a blog post (by the image quality professor?) a few years ago on the phase one web site about the philosophy behind the keystone tool. As I remember the gist of the post was that the tool is deigned for architectural correction and therefore does not do a full correction of the building leaning backwards look as that in itself looks false.

Dave

Parallel verticals is a convention in architectural photography, so full correction should be expected.
thomaskyhn
 
Posts: 166
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:50 pm
Location: CPH, DK

Re: Keystone Not Working

Postby SFA » Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:27 pm

David532 wrote:Just a thought but I read a blog post (by the image quality professor?) a few years ago on the phase one web site about the philosophy behind the keystone tool. As I remember the gist of the post was that the tool is deigned for architectural correction and therefore does not do a full correction of the building leaning backwards look as that in itself looks false.

Dave


Well remembered David.

https://blog.captureone.com/tag/keystone-tool/

This finds 4 posts related to the use to the Keystone tool including the one I think you specifically remember.

No comprehensive consideration of all aspects of what it is intended to offer but I think they are good backgrounders in terms of how the developer's expectations were conceived and, perhaps, how the majority of users who do indeed use it turn out to be using it.

Perhaps this thread has identified that things have moved on and it's time to revisit the tool in some way and refine it or enhance the documented usage guidance.

That said this article about the equivalent type of functionality in Adobe products also seems to suggest that some things can be unpredictable and puzzling depending on the image so the "perfect tool" that we all seek may not be a realistic expectation?

The article presumably dates from 2016 based on the date stamps in the comments. So 4 years old at the time of writing. Things may have changed already?

https://photographylife.com/how-to-use-perspective-corrections-in-lightroom-and-photoshop


In general, with the exception of the LR "Auto" setting and some Adobe "pixel pushing" capabilities that seem to be available, there's not much obvious difference in core concept and functionality between LR and C1 so far as I can tell. The details may differ or course, but the core concept seems very similar. As one might expect.


Grant
SFA
 
Posts: 7720
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:32 pm

Re: Keystone Not Working

Postby David532 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:38 pm

thomaskyhn wrote:
David532 wrote:Just a thought but I read a blog post (by the image quality professor?) a few years ago on the phase one web site about the philosophy behind the keystone tool. As I remember the gist of the post was that the tool is deigned for architectural correction and therefore does not do a full correction of the building leaning backwards look as that in itself looks false.

Dave

Parallel verticals is a convention in architectural photography, so full correction should be expected.

I found the link I was talking about where default settings is 80% to “give a more natural look” is covered.

https://blog.captureone.com/how-to-correct-perspective-with-the-keystone-tool/

Dave
User avatar
David532
 
Posts: 342
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:31 pm
Location: Thornbury, Uk

Re: Keystone Not Working

Postby David532 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:51 pm

SFA wrote:
David532 wrote:Just a thought but I read a blog post (by the image quality professor?) a few years ago on the phase one web site about the philosophy behind the keystone tool. As I remember the gist of the post was that the tool is deigned for architectural correction and therefore does not do a full correction of the building leaning backwards look as that in itself looks false.

Dave


Well remembered David.

https://blog.captureone.com/tag/keystone-tool/

This finds 4 posts related to the use to the Keystone tool including the one I think you specifically remember.

No comprehensive consideration of all aspects of what it is intended to offer but I think they are good backgrounders in terms of how the developer's expectations were conceived and, perhaps, how the majority of users who do indeed use it turn out to be using it.

Perhaps this thread has identified that things have moved on and it's time to revisit the tool in some way and refine it or enhance the documented usage guidance.

That said this article about the equivalent type of functionality in Adobe products also seems to suggest that some things can be unpredictable and puzzling depending on the image so the "perfect tool" that we all seek may not be a realistic expectation?

The article presumably dates from 2016 based on the date stamps in the comments. So 4 years old at the time of writing. Things may have changed already?

https://photographylife.com/how-to-use-perspective-corrections-in-lightroom-and-photoshop


In general, with the exception of the LR "Auto" setting and some Adobe "pixel pushing" capabilities that seem to be available, there's not much obvious difference in core concept and functionality between LR and C1 so far as I can tell. The details may differ or course, but the core concept seems very similar. As one might expect.


Grant


Good summary Grant and you beat me to it while I was searching for the original blog post :( . As an aside I used to get regular links to the blogs but these seem to have disappeared over the last few years.

Dave
User avatar
David532
 
Posts: 342
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:31 pm
Location: Thornbury, Uk

Re: Keystone Not Working

Postby thomaskyhn » Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:53 pm

David532 wrote:
thomaskyhn wrote:
David532 wrote:Just a thought but I read a blog post (by the image quality professor?) a few years ago on the phase one web site about the philosophy behind the keystone tool. As I remember the gist of the post was that the tool is deigned for architectural correction and therefore does not do a full correction of the building leaning backwards look as that in itself looks false.

Dave

Parallel verticals is a convention in architectural photography, so full correction should be expected.

I found the link I was talking about where default settings is 80% to “give a more natural look” is covered.

https://blog.captureone.com/how-to-correct-perspective-with-the-keystone-tool/

Dave

Yes, I'm aware of this default setting. I've made a request for this to be either changed to 100 or at least made adjustable. 80% is a completely arbitrary value given that the starting point could be anything from slightly to heavily converging verticals.
thomaskyhn
 
Posts: 166
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:50 pm
Location: CPH, DK

Re: Keystone Not Working

Postby ClauS » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:29 pm

Ian3 wrote:Maybe I was lucky in the positioning of them. It is very sensitive to that.

Ian


The unreliability of keystone points positioning and the subsequent fact that you're compelled to always zoom in and out to set them is one of the most annoying things in Capture One. That's why on my last bug report in December I have suggested Phase One to improve it too, like in Lightroom, with a zoom of the area around the point that you move. Basically a combination of keystone and loupe tool. Nothing too fancy to implement, I think.
ClauS
 
Posts: 198
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:29 pm

Re: Keystone Not Working

Postby thomaskyhn » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:35 pm

ClauS wrote:The unreliability of keystone points positioning and the subsequent fact that you're compelled to always zoom in and out to set them is one of the most annoying things in Capture One. That's why on my last bug report in December I have suggested Phase One to improve it too, like in Lightroom, with a zoom of the area around the point that you move. Basically a combination of keystone and loupe tool. Nothing too fancy to implement, I think.

A loup function like Lightroom's would be a very useful addition.

For those who aren't familiar with it, it looks like this:

Image
thomaskyhn
 
Posts: 166
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:50 pm
Location: CPH, DK

PreviousNext

Return to Workflow and Common Photography Exploration



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests