How to delete a variant from one and only one collection?

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How to delete a variant from one and only one collection?

Postby macbates » Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:10 pm

I’m having a problem with collections that has existed for quite some time (several versions of Capture One), and I can’t figure out what to do. Basically, if I delete a variant from one collection, that variant also disappears from all collections that it happens to be in. As an example:

1.In collection C1, I have image A1.
2: In that same collection, I create a variant of A1 and make it B&W.
3: I now create collection B1 and drag the B&W image of A1 (from collection C1) into collection B1
4. When I look at collection B1, both the original (color) image and present B&W image are there.

Why is this? I really only want the B&W version of image A1, and since I dragged only the B&W variant across from one collection to the next, why are two of them showing? Is this a bug or a “feature”?

Next, I decide that I don’t want the image in collection B1 any more, so I delete it the B&W one. As soon as I do, the B&W image not only goes away on collection B1, it also disappears from collection A1! This, to me, is a real bug. Surely deleting an image from one collection shouldn’t delete it from all collections.

Even if this questionable behavior is correct (and I don’t see how it could be), that brings up another issue: How do I delete the image in the second collection (B1) while still keeping the image in the first collection (A1)? I can’t seem to figure out how to do this, so it seems as if once I drag an image from one collection to another, I’m stuck with it being there forever unless I want to delete all instances of that image everywhere. I'm afraid to delete the collection, since based on the preceding behavior, that could whack all images in the collection from all other collections that they happen to be in, which would be a disaster.

Am I missing some basic understanding, or is this really the way that Capture One collections work?

- Ken
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Re: How to delete a variant from one and only one collection

Postby Eric Nepean » Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:24 am

macbates wrote:I’m having a problem with collections that has existed for quite some time (several versions of Capture One), and I can’t figure out what to do. Basically, if I delete a variant from one collection, that variant also disappears from all collections that it happens to be in. As an example:

1.In collection C1, I have image A1.
2: In that same collection, I create a variant of A1 and make it B&W.
3: I now create collection B1 and drag the B&W image of A1 (from collection C1) into collection B1
4. When I look at collection B1, both the original (color) image and present B&W image are there.

Why is this? I really only want the B&W version of image A1, and since I dragged only the B&W variant across from one collection to the next, why are two of them showing? Is this a bug or a “feature”?
Next, I decide that I don’t want the image in collection B1 any more, so I delete it the B&W one. As soon as I do, the B&W image not only goes away on collection B1, it also disappears from collection A1! This, to me, is a real bug. Surely deleting an image from one collection shouldn’t delete it from all collections.
I confirm the behaviour. In my opinion, this mechanism is needleessly complicated, and offers insufficient flexibility.
In working with Applescript for CaptureOne we see that every variant is associated with a parent image. A parent may have 1 or many variants. An image contains the EXIF Data and the path to the image file; all else (e.g. crop, adjustments, keywords) is associated with the variant(s).
What we actually see in the browser or viewer are variants.
When a variant is copied to another collection, the parent is copied as well. As we can see here, the parent brings with it all it's variants.
However, a Smart Album may show only 1 of the variants.

Even if this questionable behavior is correct (and I don’t see how it could be), that brings up another issue: How do I delete the image in the second collection (B1) while still keeping the image in the first collection (A1)?
If there is only one variant, select it and choose "Remove from Album" or "Remove from Project". If there is more than 1 variant, I can't find out how to do this.
I can’t seem to figure out how to do this, so it seems as if once I drag an image from one collection to another, I’m stuck with it being there forever unless I want to delete all instances of that image everywhere. I'm afraid to delete the collection, since based on the preceding behavior, that could whack all images in the collection from all other collections that they happen to be in, which would be a disaster.

Am I missing some basic understanding, or is this really the way that Capture One collections work?

- Ken
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Re: How to delete a variant from one and only one collection

Postby Nature Isme » Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:00 pm

Ken, I'm pretty sure I saw a question very similar to this asked both in a C1 forum and also on one of David Grover's webinars. That question involved separating variants so that some variants ended up in one album and others in another album, both managed independently so that deleting a variant from one didn't effect it in the other(s).

The answer was: C1 albums don't work like Aperture ones did. Variants of an image are managed together. If you want to separate them, apparently the only thing to do is give them different ratings and/or color tags and then create smart albums based on the ratings and tags and work with the variants there. Of course, all variants remain in the original collection. Also, if you have a variant in multiple smart albums, you probably need to be really careful about deleting it from any smart album—instead change its metadata so it no longer appears in the smart album you want to delete it with.

And yes, I think the way this works is pretty lame. You might consider sending a feature request to P1, but I don't know how much good it would do (apparently the number of requests a feature gets helps them prioritize it on their list).
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Re: How to delete a variant from one and only one collection

Postby macbates » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:13 pm

Eric: There is no "remove from album" as far as I can see. I tried both the menu and a right-click on the image, and it didn't show up in either. If I missed this, please let me know.

NatureIsMe: I think this happened to me before, but I guess I forgot about it. My penance for doing this is that I'm now stuck with an album that I don't need or want (or all the images in the extraneous album get deleted from the catalog). Yuch!

I guess the thing to do is to never move images from one collection to another, and just keep all the variants in the original album. I do agree; it's pretty lame, and I would class it more as a bug than a feature request. Sigh...

Thanks for the suggestions, though.

- Ken
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Re: How to delete a variant from one and only one collection

Postby Nature Isme » Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:58 am

Ken,

You shouldn't lose anything by deleting a collection since you're using a referenced library. If you delete an album or collection, you "should" just lose the virtual item, not the images it contains. For example, all of my images are under the "Folders" heading, and deleting from one of them actually deletes the file(s) from disk after the Trash is emptied. But deleting a User Collection only results in deleting that item, which contains only pointers to the files that the collection encompasses.

You could try this before deleting something important. Just shoot some junk images, load them into the catalog, place them in a User Collection (or album, etc.) and then delete the collection and verify that your images are still on-disk.
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Re: How to delete a variant from one and only one collection

Postby Eric Nepean » Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:19 am

macbates wrote:Eric: There is no "remove from album" as far as I can see. I tried both the menu and a right-click on the image, and it didn't show up in either. If I missed this, please let me know.

Well, it seems we are perceiving two distinctly different things.
My Setup (CaptureOne 11.0.1" :
Catalog
  • User Collections
    • Project1
      • Album1
Into Album 1 I Import some images as referenced files, including a JPG and a RAW.
I select "Album1", showing all the images in Album 1 in the browser. (Viewer is off)
When I right click on a JPG in browser, the fourth item from the top of the menu is "Remove (from Album1)"

NatureIsMe: I think this happened to me before, but I guess I forgot about it. My penance for doing this is that I'm now stuck with an album that I don't need or want (or all the images in the extraneous album get deleted from the catalog). Yuch!

I guess the thing to do is to never move images from one collection to another, and just keep all the variants in the original album. I do agree; it's pretty lame, and I would class it more as a bug than a feature request. Sigh...

Thanks for the suggestions, though.

- Ken
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Re: How to delete a variant from one and only one collection

Postby macbates » Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:08 pm

Eric: Interesting - there really is a difference between what you and I see. In the album I copied the image into, right clicking on the variant in the browser shows the fourth item down as "Delete (variant)". Going to the original album (the one the image was pulled from) also shows "Delete (variant)". I'm running version 11.0.1, Build 11.0.1.40 (3833a000). Choosing the "Delete (variant)" does remove the image in both albums, which is not what I want.

It may be time to drop David Grover a note and ask for a webinar on how collections, albums, and variants really work as opposed to how one might logically expect them to behave.

- Ken
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Re: How to delete a variant from one and only one collection

Postby Eric Nepean » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:10 am

Hi Ken
I can duplicate what you see if I make a top level album in in User Collections, and try to delete an image there.
But if I make a Project in User Collections, and in the Project I make an Album, and I try to delete an image there, then I get the result that I originally posted.
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Re: How to delete a variant from one and only one collection

Postby macbates » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:15 pm

Eric: Good to know that you can duplicate the behavior that I'm getting. The 'source' of the copy is in an album that is contained in a project in user collections, while the target of the copy is in a top level album in user collections. That sounds similar to what you have, and is certainly inconsistent behavior on the part of C1 at the very least. Thanks for verifying this.

- Ken
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Re: How to delete a variant from one and only one collection

Postby Class A » Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:38 pm

Nature Isme wrote:The answer was: C1 albums don't work like Aperture ones did. Variants of an image are managed together.

That is not a satisfactory answer.

The reason is that primary variants (original images) and any other variants are treated differently. This is inconsistent and has nothing to do with how C1 albums "work".

As long as there is only one variant (an original image) it can be freely added to and removed from any album. No album manipulation affects any other album.

Any image variants, however, are forced to occur in all albums in which any of their related variants occur. Likewise, removing a variant in one album, removes it from every other album.

This is clearly not useful behaviour. For instance, this behaviour makes it impossible to maintain an album containing only B&W treatments of images, or preserving a certain editing stage of a set of images, while one keeps evolving the same images in a different album. It also makes it impossible for one variant to only appear in one desired context only. AFAIC, it should be possible to have only one set of variants (originals) in a folder and then as many variants as one wants distributed over their respective albums. Even if albums didn't share variants (as they do now), we'd still be forced to see all variants in the folder (in which the original source image physically resides).

The problem is that a "variant" is not a "virtual copy" in the sense of Lightroom. A "variant" always has to live with its original, no matter where it appears (folder or albums). This is not helpful at all. In order to get the behaviour we are after -- being able to manage multiple images independently from each other (despite the fact that they share the same RAW data) -- we'd have to physically clone the files on the disk. However, this is precisely what "variants" or "virtual copies" are meant to prevent; a pointless and very wasteful replication of identical data.

As far as I'm concerned, the idea of a "variant" in C1 is unnecessarily crippled and severely limits one's ability to usefully organise and protect one's images (from unintended further edits).

Using smart collections in association with attributes (-> ratings) is an ugly workaround that is not only unintuitive but also incurs a performance penalty as smart collections always need to be dynamically updated.

I kindly ask everyone having the same issue (not being able to have a variant only in one desired place) to create a support ticket with Phase One.
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Re: How to delete a variant from one and only one collection

Postby syncrasy » Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:57 pm

Wow. As a Media Pro user who manually creates physical variants (I don't use C1), I had assumed that C1 (which Phase One wants me to use in place of MP) handled variants in collections in a common-sense manner á la Aperture or Lightroom. I can only shake my head in disbelief and conclude Phase One really does not understand how people use DAMs.

Thanks for pointing this out. I have added it to my growing list of C1 DAM complaints/requests, but given the number and severity of these flaws, I doubt that C1 will ever be a suitable DAM for my needs.
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