Capture One 12.0 wish list....?

Discussions, questions, comments and suggestions regarding Capture One PRO, Capture One PRO(For Sony), Capture One DB and Capture One Express(For Sony) 11.x for Mac

Re: Capture One 12.0 wish list....?

Postby SFA » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:16 pm

pope wrote:My number one feature would be tools to work on the image based on luminosity values - I want to be able to target just the highlights and then make a mask from that and work purely on that.



You can sort of do that using the Advanced colour editor functionality and, if adjusting more than colour related information, creating a mask from the values selected.

The colour balance tool also offers some control there too, but only for colour and luminosity values.

HTH.

Grant
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Re: Capture One 12.0 wish list....?

Postby Manara » Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:30 pm

Ian3 wrote:On your #3, the double click action is actually used to zoom to 100%, and back again to fit (if you have the hand tool selected).

Ian


Ian,

In browser view, with the pointer tool selected, a double click on any of the thumbnails leads you to the full screen view of that particular image; but a double click on the full screen view does nothing at all. If I want to go back to the browser view (full screen with my thumbnails) I have to hover my left hand over the keyboard and press Q (or whatever key I assigned to that action). Two hands for a simple action on/off.

When I'm editing or simply browsing my catalogs, I'm doing this toggle on/off action hundreds of times.
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Re: Capture One 12.0 wish list....?

Postby Manara » Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:39 pm

SFA wrote:
Manara wrote:
2. Please allow stacking of images in the Library for all images in a collection, not just variants (i.e., for HDR purposes).



What do you mean by Stacking in this context?

A specific "collection" of images that can be exported together and organised in the target image merge software?

Or something more than that in terms of the order of processing in some way or some other functionality that tells the merging software what to do with each of the images in terms preferences for the processing rules?

Across different merge software are there standards for such information that C1 could deploy?


Grant


Grant,

I mean having the freedom to manually stack whatever you want: similar images, or raw/jpg/tiff versions of the very same image, etc. HDR was just an example, but yes, having the possibility to stack 5 or 7 exposure variants of the same image, would be very useful.

This is independent of the further processing of those images with third party software. If you have, say, 2500 images from a single trip, and 750 of these images are "variants" (of some kind) of other images, it would help to keep your browser cleaner.
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Re: Capture One 12.0 wish list....?

Postby Manara » Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:52 pm

I don't see any conflict.

The current C1 approach to creating gradients could be left as it is. The only addition that needs to be made is to, after the gradient has been created, show some controls that support defining the extent, angle, and feathering of the gradient.

Anyone coping with the current approach could just ignore the controls. Anyone, like myself, who often needs to have repeated goes at drawing a gradient (which has to be done almost blindly with only very little guidance), could use the controls to tweak the gradient into place.

Any such gradient could still be modified by other means, e.g., brush strokes, as the overall mask associated to a layer should just be a superimposition of all contributing masks.


Exactly this!
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Re: Capture One 12.0 wish list....?

Postby SFA » Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:21 pm

Manara wrote:
SFA wrote:
Manara wrote:
2. Please allow stacking of images in the Library for all images in a collection, not just variants (i.e., for HDR purposes).



What do you mean by Stacking in this context?

A specific "collection" of images that can be exported together and organised in the target image merge software?

Or something more than that in terms of the order of processing in some way or some other functionality that tells the merging software what to do with each of the images in terms preferences for the processing rules?

Across different merge software are there standards for such information that C1 could deploy?


Grant


Grant,

I mean having the freedom to manually stack whatever you want: similar images, or raw/jpg/tiff versions of the very same image, etc. HDR was just an example, but yes, having the possibility to stack 5 or 7 exposure variants of the same image, would be very useful.

This is independent of the further processing of those images with third party software. If you have, say, 2500 images from a single trip, and 750 of these images are "variants" (of some kind) of other images, it would help to keep your browser cleaner.


That could be understood as 2 separate things.

If you are linking HDR and exposure variants of the "same Image" we need to take some care about the calrity of terminology since many may already think of that as Variants of the same image which, for DAM purposes, are already stacked.

I think what you are talking about is different exposures of the same subject with different image names - as in traditional bracketing perhaps?

Now that makes sense if you have a tool in the application that does something like HDR or focus stacking since you are making it part of the ease of use of that tool. In effect it becomes a function of the tool rather than a DAM application.

If your software does not have that tool then user will be reliant on what external application(s) (or indeed alternative application) they use for the purpose and each of them may have a different a different approach to how they can be persuaded to start an externally initiated "merge" process.

If that's the case then you are likely to have to develop interactive interfaces to multiple applications - something that they don't really need at all - because your user base will have a wide selection of such tools in use and we will all think our choice is the best and interfaces to drive only Helicon or PS or Affinity may satisfy some and annoy others.

Worse still you end up having to maintain some functionality as may be dictated by a developer with which you have no form of business relationship

That overall situation may or may not look commercially attractive.

I have, in recent years, observed this happening in the corporate business world. Over time the interfaces seem to have stabilised, user demand has eventually recognised that they, the users, are now making use of the features more than they once tried to do and often in a corporate environment they will have different groups using different interfaces and so expect to see a range available.

Developers in that market can therefore justify undertaking whatever development is necessary and charging the corporate price for their applications. Plus maintenance.

That's fine.

However I don't much relish the same thing happening for non-corporate products that I use personally when I already have access to such functionality via other products that I can use on those rare occasions when I feel I cannot avoid the need. I note that most of those other products are either rather dedicated applications designed to specialise in image amalgamation or have been developed from or alongside graphics (i.e. Artist drawing) products and the different needs and requirement of that market compared to pure image processing.

Just some thoughts.


Grant
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Re: Capture One 12.0 wish list....?

Postby JMR » Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:35 pm

hello,
it is not christmas time, but for the next release I whish:
    Being able to manage many catalogu and see them as a one. the purpose is to be able to found a photo through all catalog without needing to load many files.
    HDR panorama an focus stacking, or the ways to use edit with for applications requesting a collection of images
    more lens correction especialy for Nikon with alternative lens

And of course the corrections of the bugs I found since many version :(
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Re: Capture One 12.0 wish list....?

Postby Dinarius » Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:33 am

SFA wrote:
Dinarius wrote:3. The facility to round-trip to Helicon Focus; which Phase MF back users have had since 9.0.

D.



For your 3.

As I understand it the Phase backs with the capability are specifically shooting groups of images and identifying accordingly them in camera thus making the functionality possible in the way it has been implemented.

What do other camera providers offer that might be adaptable to use the same functionality? How consistent are the design concepts they have adopted?


Grant



Grant,

It is already possible to export a stack of images (Canon in my case) to Helicon Focus. You simply highlight the images in C1, right-click and choose Edit With, and then browse to Helicon Focus.

The problem is this; unlike in C1's Export menu, where you can choose a bunch of file formats to save to (including the all important DNG), in the Edit With menu there are only three file format choices, TIFF, PSD and Jpeg.

If DNG was added to this list (how hard can that be?!), I think it would be possible to choose Edit With, Helicon Focus/DNG, then Render the image stack in Helicon and when choosing Save, simply point Save at the folder of images you've just exported to Helicon from.

There would then (hopefully) be a Helicon rendered RAW(!) image back in C1, ready for editing.

Thanks for your feedback.

Denis

Ps. Converting the images to DNG first makes no difference. When I choose Edit With in C1, it still forces me to choose a non-DNG format for export to Helicon.
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Re: Capture One 12.0 wish list....?

Postby MikeArst » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:41 pm

My wish-list items:

• A more comprehensive split-toning feature (like, with an actual color mixing "patch" that displays the precise color you've selected — those two sliders are too crude and not "granular" enough — compare w/Alienskin Exposure X3's split-toning feature). (Of course the advanced white-balance tool can also be used for split-toning b&w images though that isn't exactly its purpose.)

• B&W fully compatible with layers.

Re:
<<In browser view, with the pointer tool selected, a double click on any of the thumbnails leads you to the full screen view of that particular image; but a double click on the full screen view does nothing at all. If I want to go back to the browser view (full screen with my thumbnails) I have to hover my left hand over the keyboard and press Q (or whatever key I assigned to that action). Two hands for a simple action on/off.>>

Hoping I haven't misunderstood the issue ... maybe this is slightly less inconvenient: hold down the space bar. The pointer tool changes momentarily to the pan (hand) tool. Double-click to toggle between fit-in-window and 100% view. With the space bar held down, spinning the mouse wheel also magnifies/reduces in smaller increments.

With the pan tool selected, either right-clicking the image or pressing the space bar opens a small window that displays a miniature view of the full image, and a smaller white rectangle within it that you can drag around to move the image around within the viewer — if it's already at a magnification higher than fit-in-window. (With either pan or pointer tool selected, Control+space-bar opens a temporary magnifier...which, I just discovered, works even if you hover the mouse pointer outside the displayed image and over the top of a thumbnail image displayed in the file browser. There's no telling what happens if you do all of the above and say the secret incantations...)
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Re: Capture One 12.0 wish list....?

Postby SFA » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:33 pm

Dinarius wrote:
SFA wrote:
Dinarius wrote:3. The facility to round-trip to Helicon Focus; which Phase MF back users have had since 9.0.

D.



For your 3.

As I understand it the Phase backs with the capability are specifically shooting groups of images and identifying accordingly them in camera thus making the functionality possible in the way it has been implemented.

What do other camera providers offer that might be adaptable to use the same functionality? How consistent are the design concepts they have adopted?


Grant



Grant,

It is already possible to export a stack of images (Canon in my case) to Helicon Focus. You simply highlight the images in C1, right-click and choose Edit With, and then browse to Helicon Focus.

The problem is this; unlike in C1's Export menu, where you can choose a bunch of file formats to save to (including the all important DNG), in the Edit With menu there are only three file format choices, TIFF, PSD and Jpeg.

If DNG was added to this list (how hard can that be?!), I think it would be possible to choose Edit With, Helicon Focus/DNG, then Render the image stack in Helicon and when choosing Save, simply point Save at the folder of images you've just exported to Helicon from.

There would then (hopefully) be a Helicon rendered RAW(!) image back in C1, ready for editing.

Thanks for your feedback.

Denis

Ps. Converting the images to DNG first makes no difference. When I choose Edit With in C1, it still forces me to choose a non-DNG format for export to Helicon.


Denis,

Thanks for the clarifcation. It sounds like your basic requirement seems to be "Edit with ..." including an option to convert to DNG (of some sort - there are a number of specifications as I understand it) at the time of output. This would be independent of what purpose you put it to.

But using "Edit with" on a RAW file is sending the original RAW to the chosen target in theory. However as, historically, not all possible editors will support an original RAW file and size may be an issue, selecting a file type that IS widely supported must simplify things.

I have not looked at Helicon for some years but I see it is capable of a "raw in DNG out" workflow - basically what C1 does if you process files out to DNG.

I have done a little quick reading (more to follow) which suggests Helicon can read in DNG files too - hardly a surprise I suppose but so fa the information on their web site does not seem to make a big play about that. TIFF would be more normal as a top level existing standard I believe but presumably the file size saving with DNG is the main attraction? However as yet I have not found a specific reference to the use fo DNG files as input and the benefit to accure form doing so.

I would imagine that a camera shooting DNG natively might have its version of DNG supported, presumably via some free Adobe DNG conversion/usage software in line with Helicon's export to DNG from an original RAW file set as a source. The attraction there is, of course, maximum quality potential but at a smaller file size than a regular TIFF file. Presumably improved processing times are an additional objective? But is that what is delivered and what you are seeking.

While considering all of this I noticed that Affinity Photo offer an option to open dng files but not to export in dng format - unless such a thing has just been added in the very latest version. DNG being an Adobe created standard set one could expect Adobe products to offer dng options for everything?

Meanwhile ....


Using Affinity as a dng reading substitue for Helicon for testing, if I set up an Export to convert CR2 files to DNG format in a specific folder and set up Affinity in the recipe as the "Open With" file all of the set will be presented in Affinity.

Whether affinity has a way to auto-ingest into its HDR or Focus stacking functions I am not sure but I could achieve that quickly (fairly quickly) smply by starting the process and selecting the images from the dedicated folder created (and re-used) as part of the Process activity.

Perhaps Helicon, as software with a specific purpose, can be set to automatically start its processing according to some rules?


Grant
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Re: Capture One 12.0 wish list....?

Postby SFA » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:43 pm

MikeArst wrote:My wish-list items:

• A more comprehensive split-toning feature (like, with an actual color mixing "patch" that displays the precise color you've selected — those two sliders are too crude and not "granular" enough — compare w/Alienskin Exposure X3's split-toning feature). (Of course the advanced white-balance tool can also be used for split-toning b&w images though that isn't exactly its purpose.)


An interesting point Mike.

The current Hue slider bars allow for 360 steps of selection. Do you think that needs to be extended for greater granularity?

(Also you mentioned secret incantations .... just thought I would ask whether you were familiar with the options using the numeric value windows and incrementing/decrementing the values in single digits or multiples of 10? You probably are ..... but just in case it seemed like a good idea to ask.)



Grant
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Re: Capture One 12.0 wish list....?

Postby Dinarius » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:04 pm

Denis,

Thanks for the clarifcation. It sounds like your basic requirement seems to be "Edit with ..." including an option to convert to DNG (of some sort - there are a number of specifications as I understand it) at the time of output. This would be independent of what purpose you put it to.

But using "Edit with" on a RAW file is sending the original RAW to the chosen target in theory. However as, historically, not all possible editors will support an original RAW file and size may be an issue, selecting a file type that IS widely supported must simplify things.

I have not looked at Helicon for some years but I see it is capable of a "raw in DNG out" workflow - basically what C1 does if you process files out to DNG.

I have done a little quick reading (more to follow) which suggests Helicon can read in DNG files too - hardly a surprise I suppose but so fa the information on their web site does not seem to make a big play about that. TIFF would be more normal as a top level existing standard I believe but presumably the file size saving with DNG is the main attraction? However as yet I have not found a specific reference to the use fo DNG files as input and the benefit to accure form doing so.

I would imagine that a camera shooting DNG natively might have its version of DNG supported, presumably via some free Adobe DNG conversion/usage software in line with Helicon's export to DNG from an original RAW file set as a source. The attraction there is, of course, maximum quality potential but at a smaller file size than a regular TIFF file. Presumably improved processing times are an additional objective? But is that what is delivered and what you are seeking.

While considering all of this I noticed that Affinity Photo offer an option to open dng files but not to export in dng format - unless such a thing has just been added in the very latest version. DNG being an Adobe created standard set one could expect Adobe products to offer dng options for...


Grant[/quote]

Grant,

Thanks for the reply.

As I stated in the Ps to my post, converting the files to DNG first makes no difference.

Yes, Helicon can read DNG files, but it has to receive them as DNG files.

If you have a folder of DNG files open in C1, and you choose Edit With/Helicon Focus, the C1 Edit With dialog obliges you to choose one of three formats for export to Helicon, none of which is DNG. (If it was there wouldn’t be a problem.)

So, even though the files in C1 are DNG, Helicon must receive them as TIFF or JPEG.

I guess one could convert to DNG, point Helicon at that folder, render the files, and only then open that folder in C1.

But, the workflow would be far smoother if C1’s Edit With dialog had the same file type choices as its Export dialog.

Thanks.

Denis

Ps. The longhand method of converting to DNG and Redering the image stacks in Helicon before opening them in C1 does work. But, it would be far simpler to add .dng to the C1 Edit With dialog options. :D It would have the added advantage of sending them to Helicon with their default lens profiles intact.
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Re: Capture One 12.0 wish list....?

Postby SFA » Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:40 pm

Your saying that DNG files, as converted, do not have a lens profile baked in as TIFF would do? (At least to my understanding.)

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Re: Capture One 12.0 wish list....?

Postby Dinarius » Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:52 pm

SFA wrote:Your saying that DNG files, as converted, do not have a lens profile baked in as TIFF would do? (At least to my understanding.)

Grant


Grant,

I'm saying that, if I load a memory card of files onto my hard drive, and then run them thro' Adobe DNG converter, and then run them thro' Helicon Focus, BEFORE opening them in C1; they will have been stacked and converted to a single DNG file minus their lens corrections. Right?

The lens corrections (which is what I mean by profile) are applied within C1. Correct?

So, if they were to be loaded into C1 first (before Helicon), the ONLY edit that would be applied to them before their trip to Helicon would be Lens Corrections (in my default setup.) Make sense?

Maybe I'm wrong in thinking this, but I suspect that in some cases, each of the files in the stack arriving in Helicon with its lens corrections might make for a better single image back from Helicon. Happy to be corrected on this.

Either way, my request still stands: Edit With should have the same list of file types as Export, or at the very least have DNG added.

For that I would upgrade to C1 11.0! 8)

Thanks for your feedback.

Denis
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Re: Capture One 12.0 wish list....?

Postby MikeArst » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:31 pm

Re:
An interesting point Mike.
The current Hue slider bars allow for 360 steps of selection. Do you think that needs to be extended for greater granularity?
(Also you mentioned secret incantations .... just thought I would ask whether you were familiar with the options using the numeric value windows and incrementing/decrementing the values in single digits or multiples of 10? You probably are ..... but just in case it seemed like a good idea to ask.)Grant


It might be granular enough as-is, but I find it hard to see what the selected color is. The Exposure X3 approach is a slider in addition to a color-mixing palette, which allows for quite a bit of fine control. And you see a large-ish color patch showing the precise color you've selected. The mixing palette also allows you to select colors via RGB values. I'm sure that once a person becomes fully accustomed to Capture One's way of doing it, you can get the job done. I think it'd be possible to get it done somewhat easier with the additional color displays.

I still haven't learned the secret incantations, but I do use the arrow keys and shift+arrow keys approaches at times.
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Re: Capture One 12.0 wish list....?

Postby Tibor » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:10 am

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