Dissatisfaction with Capture One Tech Support

Discussions, questions, comments and suggestions regarding Capture One PRO, Capture One PRO For Sony / Fujifilm, Capture One for Phase One and Capture One Express For Sony / For Fujifilm 20.x for Mac

Re: Dissatisfaction with C1 Tech Support

Postby SFA » Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:01 am

Jerry,

As long time observer of the Mac forums alongside my use of Windows 7 I have to express some concerns about the thought of moving to Windows 10 which seems to have a few more issues than Win 7 - not a few being flagged up as connected to the sometime less than stellar quality of the updates that are pushed out by MS.

However MS seem to be following in the footstep of Apple in that regard and I have to say that the thought of dealing with Apple's update policy, if I were in a position to head down the Mac path, would be of greater concern based on the issues reported here especially after the annual major OS updates.

I appreciate that there are probably more Mac users than Windows users in the C1 user base but even so number of gotchas that come up every year is disheartening.

I'm not saying things are perfect. I have a couple of niggles to deal with, the most inconvenient may be a Win 7 update related matter but I can't recall exactly what fixed it last time I saw it.

But in general on Win 7 V20 seems to be very solid an performs well even on my 7 years old PC.

If I end up being forced to move to Win 10 I really hope that nothing breaks during the process or with subsequent MS updates.

I cannot ever see myself even considering a move to Mac based on following the threads in this forum.

I get the strong impression that there was a significant amount of disconnect between whatever was expected in the Catalina release fixes in the weeks between its release and the C1 release intended to work with it (as beta tested?) and what actually hit the streets.

That and the problems with the order processing concept deployed this year has probably combined to stretch available resources well beyond anything anticipated. Not a good time of year to have that problem. And of course as everyone attempts so push harder to find out what is happening to the problems they reported the system probably becomes more and more overloaded. I've been there in the past supporting customers. It's very frustrating for everyone but all the more so if there are influencing factors beyond ones control - for example external suppliers and their time scales.

I have no idea what the influences are but taking a guess that they are likely much the same as previous challenges that I have been involved with, in the worst case one end up with great frustration at delays about which there is nothing one can logically do to fix the issues as quickly as one would like.

But this does seem that something that is hitting the Mac users harder than any issues Windows users are experiencing.


Grant
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Re: Dissatisfaction with C1 Tech Support

Postby Horseoncowboy » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:35 am

NN635680879799322049UL wrote:.... are Mac users used to the idea that Mac software should just work, or is there more to it?

Jerry C


no, there is nothing more to it, the only software on my system which is bugy and crashes even when idle is C1. what really separates c1 from other Mac software I use is the annual drama and apple blame game, it is boring and unprofessional. bugs are a normal thing and unavoidable but what makes a difference for us user is how a company reacts, from this perspective p1 its even worse than adobe. affinity just rolled out a new photo beta and it is a good example of a very different attitude, they are in a real open dialog with their user which benefits both sides.
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Re: Dissatisfaction with C1 Tech Support

Postby NNN636638844043775816 » Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:09 pm

Hello all!

another unsatisfied user with tech support. I posted and sent my problems (video, logs, descriptions, even apple reports) and no answer from the 13th of December. In my opinion this version was a totally shame... ¿how can be users stucked for more than a month or using a downgraded version?

Regards.

Artur.
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Re: Dissatisfaction with C1 Tech Support

Postby thomaskyhn » Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:13 pm

NNN636638844043775816 wrote:Hello all!

another unsatisfied user with tech support. I posted and sent my problems (video, logs, descriptions, even apple reports) and no answer from the 13th of December. In my opinion this version was a totally shame... ¿how can be users stucked for more than a month or using a downgraded version?

Regards.

Artur.

Sounds like it's time to hire more people.
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Re: Dissatisfaction with C1 Tech Support

Postby Horseoncowboy » Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:10 pm

NNN636638844043775816 wrote:Hello all!

another unsatisfied user with tech support. I posted and sent my problems (video, logs, descriptions, even apple reports) and no answer from the 13th of December. In my opinion this version was a totally shame... ¿how can be users stucked for more than a month or using a downgraded version?

Regards.

Artur.



....you just need to buy a p1 back and you get premium support again. ;-). I think p1 is adjusting to a fast changing mf market and it is understandable that they reserve better support to their hardware customer because not much else is left to fight fuji. the software only customer have always been second class but now it becomes more visible and I would be surprised if this will change in the near future. what is not needed to keep their hardware business alive goes to the investors and as long as there is not a major flashback this will be the new normal.
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Re: Dissatisfaction with C1 Tech Support

Postby SFA » Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:45 pm

Horseoncowboy wrote:
NNN636638844043775816 wrote:Hello all!

another unsatisfied user with tech support. I posted and sent my problems (video, logs, descriptions, even apple reports) and no answer from the 13th of December. In my opinion this version was a totally shame... ¿how can be users stucked for more than a month or using a downgraded version?

Regards.

Artur.



....you just need to buy a p1 back and you get premium support again. ;-). I think p1 is adjusting to a fast changing mf market and it is understandable that they reserve better support to their hardware customer because not much else is left to fight fuji. the software only customer have always been second class but now it becomes more visible and I would be surprised if this will change in the near future. what is not needed to keep their hardware business alive goes to the investors and as long as there is not a major flashback this will be the new normal.



Do you know this or are you just speculating?
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Re: Dissatisfaction with C1 Tech Support

Postby Horseoncowboy » Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:04 pm

SFA wrote:
Horseoncowboy wrote:
NNN636638844043775816 wrote:Hello all!

another unsatisfied user with tech support. I posted and sent my problems (video, logs, descriptions, even apple reports) and no answer from the 13th of December. In my opinion this version was a totally shame... ¿how can be users stucked for more than a month or using a downgraded version?

Regards.

Artur.



....you just need to buy a p1 back and you get premium support again. ;-). I think p1 is adjusting to a fast changing mf market and it is understandable that they reserve better support to their hardware customer because not much else is left to fight fuji. the software only customer have always been second class but now it becomes more visible and I would be surprised if this will change in the near future. what is not needed to keep their hardware business alive goes to the investors and as long as there is not a major flashback this will be the new normal.



Do you know this or are you just speculating?


you probably know that they are owned by an investment company, so what do you think is the business goal ? happy customer or maximized profit ?
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Re: Dissatisfaction with C1 Tech Support

Postby thomaskyhn » Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:07 pm

SFA wrote:
Horseoncowboy wrote:
NNN636638844043775816 wrote:Hello all!

another unsatisfied user with tech support. I posted and sent my problems (video, logs, descriptions, even apple reports) and no answer from the 13th of December. In my opinion this version was a totally shame... ¿how can be users stucked for more than a month or using a downgraded version?

Regards.

Artur.



....you just need to buy a p1 back and you get premium support again. ;-). I think p1 is adjusting to a fast changing mf market and it is understandable that they reserve better support to their hardware customer because not much else is left to fight fuji. the software only customer have always been second class but now it becomes more visible and I would be surprised if this will change in the near future. what is not needed to keep their hardware business alive goes to the investors and as long as there is not a major flashback this will be the new normal.



Do you know this or are you just speculating?

The part about premium support is clearly a fact.
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Re: Dissatisfaction with C1 Tech Support

Postby SFA » Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:55 pm

Horseoncowboy wrote:
you probably know that they are owned by an investment company, so what do you think is the business goal ? happy customer or maximized profit ?


Been owned by an investment company for years albeit a different one since the middle of last year.

Neither of them seem to be overtly connected with asset stripping. Under the previous investment the company seems to have progressed along much the same path as they hoped for before that partnership started.

Thankfully Phase is not yet a target for the most aggressive investors involved in "building value" into companies. Or so it seems.
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Re: Dissatisfaction with C1 Tech Support

Postby Horseoncowboy » Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:42 pm

SFA wrote:
Horseoncowboy wrote:
you probably know that they are owned by an investment company, so what do you think is the business goal ? happy customer or maximized profit ?


Been owned by an investment company for years albeit a different one since the middle of last year.

Neither of them seem to be overtly connected with asset stripping. Under the previous investment the company seems to have progressed along much the same path as they hoped for before that partnership started.

Thankfully Phase is not yet a target for the most aggressive investors involved in "building value" into companies. Or so it seems.


for the last years the plan was - deliver less charge more - if this is not right out of an investment firms playbook i don't know. the price increase for the updates was extrem high every year and not just an adjustment to inflation.

the also did not deliver one real innovation for year, the app looks more and more like a cluttered 90´windows app, and they ignor the iPad.
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Re: Dissatisfaction with C1 Tech Support

Postby photoGrant » Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:05 pm

There has been a beta forum on here before. It was removed.

I've been a beta software tester for as long as I've remembered. I helped shape Auto-Save in Photoshop back in the day, finally, for example. I've seen the gamut of developers and companies and how they interact, deal and respond to customers, clients, fans, pissed off ex customers, other developers, know it alls, apologists, etc.

The fact of the matter is, no company I have ever been in communication with, has been this ignorant and crass when it comes to receiving feedback. I've spent countless weeks submitting material to be fixed over the years and most has fallen on deaf ears.

Further I've pushed the idea of a more open beta platform by way of allowing us to at least see our own bug report. I think there's a line that can be drawn with regards to how public they make all of this information, but at the very least you should be able to see your own communications with the company.

At this point because I'm so pissed off I almost want to go for a Subject Access Request and just request a copy of all the information they have on me so I can see my correspondance again.

Poor show to all involved. It's creating a real stain.
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Re: Dissatisfaction with C1 Tech Support

Postby thomaskyhn » Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:28 pm

photoGrant wrote:There has been a beta forum on here before. It was removed.

I've been a beta software tester for as long as I've remembered. I helped shape Auto-Save in Photoshop back in the day, finally, for example. I've seen the gamut of developers and companies and how they interact, deal and respond to customers, clients, fans, pissed off ex customers, other developers, know it alls, apologists, etc.

The fact of the matter is, no company I have ever been in communication with, has been this ignorant and crass when it comes to receiving feedback. I've spent countless weeks submitting material to be fixed over the years and most has fallen on deaf ears.

Further I've pushed the idea of a more open beta platform by way of allowing us to at least see our own bug report. I think there's a line that can be drawn with regards to how public they make all of this information, but at the very least you should be able to see your own communications with the company.

At this point because I'm so pissed off I almost want to go for a Subject Access Request and just request a copy of all the information they have on me so I can see my correspondance again.

Poor show to all involved. It's creating a real stain.

What does the company gain from this? Is it just about saving money on support, development, etc.?

Beta forums are a great idea, but they require some level of interaction from the company; if testers are just left to themselves and their reports appear to be ignored it's obviously just going to cause further frustration.
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Re: Dissatisfaction with C1 Tech Support

Postby photoGrant » Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:42 pm

thomaskyhn wrote:
photoGrant wrote:There has been a beta forum on here before. It was removed.

I've been a beta software tester for as long as I've remembered. I helped shape Auto-Save in Photoshop back in the day, finally, for example. I've seen the gamut of developers and companies and how they interact, deal and respond to customers, clients, fans, pissed off ex customers, other developers, know it alls, apologists, etc.

The fact of the matter is, no company I have ever been in communication with, has been this ignorant and crass when it comes to receiving feedback. I've spent countless weeks submitting material to be fixed over the years and most has fallen on deaf ears.

Further I've pushed the idea of a more open beta platform by way of allowing us to at least see our own bug report. I think there's a line that can be drawn with regards to how public they make all of this information, but at the very least you should be able to see your own communications with the company.

At this point because I'm so pissed off I almost want to go for a Subject Access Request and just request a copy of all the information they have on me so I can see my correspondance again.

Poor show to all involved. It's creating a real stain.

What does the company gain from this? Is it just about saving money on support, development, etc.?

Beta forums are a great idea, but they require some level of interaction from the company; if testers are just left to themselves and their reports appear to be ignored it's obviously just going to cause further frustration.


It's about consolidating your feedback into a manageable and accountable place. It's about allowing the community of testers to interact with each other first. It's about allowing your testers to problem solve and it's about allowing developers to be interacting.

Submitting all this information in an email, receiving no record or copy of what you submitted, having no resolution or feedback that the bug was valid or not -- it just creates a black hole of hope lost. Why bother? Library bugs I submitted in Version 9, Version 10, Version 11, Version 12... exist in Version 20.

It's about being able to see that trend and ask why?
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Re: Dissatisfaction with C1 Tech Support

Postby SFA » Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:05 pm

Surely the objectives for beta testing are somewhat varied?

From a pure software testing perspective a developer would like some sort of controlled cadre of testers who are

[list=]Known to be competent with the product;
Have time to actually do some testing;
As a group cover a wide range of functionality available in the product;
As a group cover a wide range of photographic (in this specifc case) genre;
Are not going to require support to understand the parts of the product they should already know;
Can report a problem clearly and explain how they investigated and tested;
Can report a problem with evidence;
Have enough nous to try some options to test the breadth or depth of a problem;
Understand enough about their hardware and systems to be able to differentiate between a possible application level bug and some sort of hardware/firmware/OS/Driver incompatibility;
Are representative of typical users of both Mac and Windows operating systems that are currently supported;
Use equipment that covers a number of years of technology;
Represent a full range of camera manufacturer products and, to some extent, lens manufacturers as well;
Are representative of customers using other software (PS, Affinity, Etc.) and plug-ins as part of the work flow. [/list]

Once these helpers have tested the base level of functionality a wider group, perhaps representing the potential for the huge number of system configuration variations out in the wild (Especially in Windows World) might be included as a final 'sweep up'.

It shouldn't be too much effort to arrange, manage and co-ordinate such a team should it?

Not too costly?

How should one measure the success ratio and do a cost benefit analysis?

How would it help with testing something from an external supplier, say an operating system developer or a ancillary card driver program that changed at the last moment?

Apple can't be certain to deliver a totally problem free release.

Microsoft can't be certain to deliver a totally problem free update.

They both have plenty of resources and stacks of cash to fund them.

Plus they are in total control of their products and attempt to control any third party products that use their products.

So what system of testing do they use that is still not flawless?

I could go on but I'll leave the discussion of agile development and testing for some other place at another time.



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Re: Dissatisfaction with C1 Tech Support

Postby IanL » Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:20 pm

NN635680879799322049UL wrote:Have Windows users come to expect things not to work, are Mac users used to the idea that Mac software should just work, or is there more to it?


I for one am a Windows user but I read both forums - many issues and opportunities for learning are not OS specific - and I chimed in on the thread on this forum because it was already here.
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