Where do yellow auto-labels come from?

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Where do yellow auto-labels come from?

Postby TrapperPhD » Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:03 am

Hi there,


I repeatedly observed that yellow color labels are applied to files inside Capture One (v12.1.3 64bit).

Any hint where those might come from?

I even observed that while working in a folder and haven had applied red labels, those were changed to yellow labels without me touching the items.

This is quite annoying, honestly spoken.


Best regards
Christian
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Re: Where do yellow auto-labels come from?

Postby SFA » Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:39 am

You mean Colour tags?

What sort of files? RAW or jpg?

Are you importing them or just reading them from a current location?

Have they been edited in another system and given tags? Or maybe in camera?

Are you running some sort of synchronisation for Metadata?


Grant
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Re: Where do yellow auto-labels come from?

Postby ClauS » Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:57 am

I was thinking to synchronisation issues too, but one possible inner reason could be that you applied a style containing a yellow tag setting. Another (less possible) reason could be that you had inadvertently color tagged yellow an image with "edit all variants" enabled, tagging all the selected ones.
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Re: Where do yellow auto-labels come from?

Postby TrapperPhD » Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:22 pm

Thank you, guys.

Yes, I refer to color tags, sorry for not being precise.

Sorts of files concerned = RAF (Fuji RAW), DNG, JPG.

No, no style applied so far, and none of my styles includes a color tagging.

No, I did neither intentionally or accidentally apply a yellow color tag. But I repeatedly applied either "no color tag" or a red color tag. But sooner or later, yellow has been back again.

Yes, the files had been edited before being imported into Capture One. I cannot full exclude that a color tag might had been added (but if, not yellow). OK, let´s assume that color tags might have been added before, and that there has been a mismatch of color during import. But this would at least explain the alleged "auto-labeling" after import.

And yes, I am running full synchronization of metadata sidecar XMP?


But!!! ...
once I am going to change or remove the color label after haven been imported, I would expect that this change is kept and the sidecar sync updates the XMP. Or in other words, I would expect that "full sidecar sync" works in both directions and either latest change is sync'ed. Or is my assumption wrong?


Best regards
Christian
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Re: Where do yellow auto-labels come from?

Postby Ian3 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:55 pm

Or in other words, I would expect that "full sidecar sync" works in both directions and either latest change is sync'ed. Or is my assumption wrong?

It doesn't quite work like that. In Preferences, on the Image tab, there's a Metadata section. The second check box says "Prefer sidecar XMP over embedded metadata". If that is checked, and you are using full synchronisation, Capture One will keep reverting what Capture One shows you to what it says in the XMP. If that is unchecked, it's the other way round, and it will keep changing the XMP to match what you have set in Capture One.

Ian
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Re: Where do yellow auto-labels come from?

Postby ClauS » Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:11 pm

NNN636764076938369656 wrote:Thank you, guys.

Yes, the files had been edited before being imported into Capture One. I cannot full exclude that a color tag might had been added (but if, not yellow). OK, let´s assume that color tags might have been added before, and that there has been a mismatch of color during import. But this would at least explain the alleged "auto-labeling" after import.

And yes, I am running full synchronization of metadata sidecar XMP?


But!!! ...
once I am going to change or remove the color label after haven been imported, I would expect that this change is kept and the sidecar sync updates the XMP. Or in other words, I would expect that "full sidecar sync" works in both directions and either latest change is sync'ed. Or is my assumption wrong?



I think a color mismatch between programs could be possible (probably I had even experienced it when I used Capture NX 2 too) but there are so many variables in your case that it's difficult to tell apart all the possible situations. I mean, I don't know which program you use (and why) to edit your files before going into CO, what you do with it, if it creates XMP files or writes metadata directly into your files (for sure it's possible with JPEGs and DNGs but I don't know if it's able to do that with RAFs).
If you've set CO preferences to full sync, your metadata should be written to the XMP. Also, have you checked "Prefer sidecar XMP over embedded Metadata" option? Otherwise an embedded Metadata could take priority and change your tags.
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Re: Where do yellow auto-labels come from?

Postby TrapperPhD » Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:15 pm

Dear Ian, dear ClauS,


I don't know which program you use (and why) to edit your files before going into CO

I use Photo Mechanic in the field, while being on travel, to preselect, pre-rate and add some basic metadata (like copyright information).

Obviously I haven't understood the Metadata sync features of Capture One very well so far. I chased it a bit more, and switching "full sync" to "load" with sidecar autosync at least solved the color tag relabeling issue.

Actually, the naming of the 'auto sync sidecar XMP' options in the preferences is a little bit confusing to me. By wording, I would have expected the behaviour recently observed (sidecar overriding changes in CO) from a "load" function ... in the sense of the sidecar XMP always being reloaded to Capture One. And in contrary I would have expected a "full sync" option to generally sync in both ways ... so the latest change is always overwriting in any direction.

Anyhow, thanks for your guidance.


Best
CV
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Re: Where do yellow auto-labels come from?

Postby ClauS » Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:19 pm

NNN636764076938369656 wrote:Dear Ian, dear ClauS,


I don't know which program you use (and why) to edit your files before going into CO

I use Photo Mechanic in the field, while being on travel, to preselect, pre-rate and add some basic metadata (like copyright information).

Obviously I haven't understood the Metadata sync features of Capture One very well so far. I chased it a bit more, and switching "full sync" to "load" with sidecar autosync at least solved the color tag relabeling issue.

Actually, the naming of the 'auto sync sidecar XMP' options in the preferences is a little bit confusing to me. By wording, I would have expected the behaviour recently observed (sidecar overriding changes in CO) from a "load" function ... in the sense of the sidecar XMP always being reloaded to Capture One. And in contrary I would have expected a "full sync" option to generally sync in both ways ... so the latest change is always overwriting in any direction.

Anyhow, thanks for your guidance.


Best
CV


I agree with you that preferences (and the manual too) can be a little bit confusing. I've wanted to verify if my understanding was right (spoiler: it was) so I've spent yesterday afternoon/evening testing metadata syncing. I did it in conjunction with Media Pro 2 and I experienced issues like color mismatch and unreliability (and I would even say bugs). It seems to be even odder considering that both apps come from Phase One, even though Media Pro is no more than Expression media 2 with little updates.

Regarding metadata, they can be written in many forms (Exif, IPTC, XMP) and in many places. CO stores metadata in its own cache but is able to read from and write in (all?) files too as well as from and in sidecar XMPs.

To simplify things, "Auto Sync sidecar XMP" setting has three options:

  1. None - CO relies on its own cache only. It does not read XMP files and does not create them either unless you choose to manually load/sync metadata right clicking an image and choosing the appropriate option or through the Metadata tool.
  2. Load - CO reads the XMP files and should update its own metadata as soon as these are written on the sidecar file by another app.
    I said "should" 'cause loading is where I've experienced many issues. Sometimes it gets stuck and stops working. Also I thought that your problem could be related to CO re-loading unsynced XMP files but from my tests I think there must be a sort of protection system. I mean that if you change something after it has already loaded metadata from the XMP file, CO probably loads from it again only when it checks that it has been modified. So, for example, if you change rating and label and you close the program, when you open it back their values do not revert to those written in the XMP file. If you want to revert them you have to load from XMP manually.
  3. Full Sync - as expected CO both reads and writes XMP files. If there isn't one yet, CO creates it for every imported/read image. Every change is immediately read from and written in the XMP file. So XMP and cache are always synced.
    Beware that this option can mess things if you create more variants with different ratings and labels and you alternate them as the primary edit. But this is another story.

As I said metadata can be stored in different places and formats and the same file can have multiple sources (even with different values) so, as I understand them, the two boxes below, set the preferable place where CO should read metadata from but I'm unsure whether they set where to write too. I'm inclined to think no.

Sorry for the length. I hope I made myself clear.
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Re: Where do yellow auto-labels come from?

Postby TrapperPhD » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:00 am

ClauS wrote:Sorry for the length. I hope I made myself clear.


Thanks a lot, ClauS! Really helpful and appreciated.

In the meantime I also checked documentation, and actually the described "sync" behaviour should be as I had assumed (sync of any latest changes in both ways) ... but as it did not behave.

I also realized that the editing of metadata of multiple images (with having "edit all selected variants" active!) does not work properly (always only the first selected is changed, all others not).

So, I think there is still some room for improving the metadata engine of CO. But this does not jeopardize its outstanding efficiency and quality with editing images, which is really impressive to me after haven switched from Lightroom.

Best
Christian
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Re: Where do yellow auto-labels come from?

Postby SFA » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:28 am

NNN636764076938369656 wrote:
ClauS wrote:Sorry for the length. I hope I made myself clear.


Thanks a lot, ClauS! Really helpful and appreciated.

In the meantime I also checked documentation, and actually the described "sync" behaviour should be as I had assumed (sync of any latest changes in both ways) ... but as it did not behave.

I also realized that the editing of metadata of multiple images (with having "edit all selected variants" active!) does not work properly (always only the first selected is changed, all others not).

So, I think there is still some room for improving the metadata engine of CO. But this does not jeopardize its outstanding efficiency and quality with editing images, which is really impressive to me after haven switched from Lightroom.

Best
Christian



How can you, realistically and completely, SYNC both ways other than populating opposing unpopulated fields?

Doing it once for set up may make some sense. Running permanently? I can't see how that would or cold reliably deliver against expectations.

I woudl be happy to undersant how it might be used although I don't have such a need myself at this point.


Grant
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Re: Where do yellow auto-labels come from?

Postby TrapperPhD » Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:02 pm

SFA wrote:How can you, realistically and completely, SYNC both ways other than populating opposing unpopulated fields?


Well, frankly spoken, I am not the expert on how to do.

I am just talking about the expectation level the "auto sync" wording might create. And at that end, if any tool is telling me to keep things auto-sync'ed, I personally would expect to always have the latest changes saved and shown.

BTW, when doing the exercise with two different tools in the past (e.g. PhotoMechanic and Lightroom), this was exactly what happened with a (manual) sync. Editing the EXIF/IPTC metadata with either tool always showed the latest change in the other tool after a triggering manual sync (of the file or folder). Certainly, there is no auto-sync with both those tools, but that is also not what they promise to do.

BTW, in the actual case, the issue was that there was no sync at all (see trail messages above). The issue has been that with "auto sync" activated, after any change inside CO, the old data were always instantly restored and the CO applied change lost again. So, it was a purely unidirectional sync, also called "load".

Best
Christian
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Re: Where do yellow auto-labels come from?

Postby SFA » Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:40 pm

NNN636764076938369656 wrote:
SFA wrote:How can you, realistically and completely, SYNC both ways other than populating opposing unpopulated fields?


Well, frankly spoken, I am not the expert on how to do.

I am just talking about the expectation level the "auto sync" wording might create. And at that end, if any tool is telling me to keep things auto-sync'ed, I personally would expect to always have the latest changes saved and shown.

BTW, when doing the exercise with two different tools in the past (e.g. PhotoMechanic and Lightroom), this was exactly what happened with a (manual) sync. Editing the EXIF/IPTC metadata with either tool always showed the latest change in the other tool after a triggering manual sync (of the file or folder). Certainly, there is no auto-sync with both those tools, but that is also not what they promise to do.

BTW, in the actual case, the issue was that there was no sync at all (see trail messages above). The issue has been that with "auto sync" activated, after any change inside CO, the old data were always instantly restored and the CO applied change lost again. So, it was a purely unidirectional sync, also called "load".

Best
Christian


HI Christian,

Sorry I should have written "How can one ..." rather than "How can you ..." .,

It was meant to be a question of logic rather than a personal question.

Load I can understand.

Take the values from one preferred source and load them to the other - perhaps with some indication of what to do for already populated fields that might be involved.

Auto Sync can only really be used with a preference system defined but even then I can imagine the potential for problems.

I recall some years ago reading a post from someone who was a technical expert for computers and mobile devices and how to set them up for ultimate efficiently and security of data.

So Synchronisation to share everything and make sure it was backed up and the backup maintained.

It was a long saga but using a web backup and sharing service he synched everything and then realised that every file delete was being replicated across all devices and sometime restored only to be delete again.

And so on with other types of transactions.

By the time he realised what was going on had had a rolling disaster on his hands which was almost unstoppable and cause havoc as well as compromising his back up strategy and creating a huge data usage bill. I don't recall the details but that was the gist of the story he reported.

It's a bit like sending out a bulk email and an Auto reply for out of office for the same account without anticipating that others may also have set an Out of office auto reply or an automated "Undeliverable mail" message.

Send out the mail and then go on a business trip or holiday for a few days. Come back to thousands of messages bouncing back and forth responding to each other. By the that time the auto-retries for the undelivered mail will have ramped up though "Trying again in 1 hour..." to "Trying again in 1 week ..." and become almost impossible to stop. I saw one example in action some years ago. From memory it took about 6 weeks to finally eliminate the automated process effects.

Such are the challenges of creating a successful data synchronisation process.

If one is using two systems - say, as an example, Photo Mechanic and C1 - and one moves a file from one folder to another can one be sure that both systems will know about the move and be able to continue to Sych successfully?

If, as part of a import process, one create a new copy of a file - does the Synch connection still apply?

If one imports AND renames on import does the Synch connection still apply?

Just some thoughts to consider.


Grant
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Re: Where do yellow auto-labels come from?

Postby ClauS » Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:58 pm

SFA wrote:Auto Sync can only really be used with a preference system defined but even then I can imagine the potential for problems.

I recall some years ago reading a post from someone who was a technical expert for computers and mobile devices and how to set them up for ultimate efficiently and security of data.

[...]


I'm not saying that something wrong couldn't happen but I don't see it so complicated. Obviously you can't expect programs to track moved files it they've been moved by other apps (I've met this problem any time I had to tell Media Pro where to look for missing files) but we are talking about metadata here, not about backups and storage synchronization or a ping pong between apps.

XMP files are born exactly to avoid this, to store metadata in a single location available for every app to read and make them be synced in an easy way. The first program dealing with a file creates its sidecar XMP. The other apps read it. If a change is made by any app, it is (or should be) written in the file. The other apps check the change and read metadata again updating their internal cache (if there's one). It's very easy, given for granted that you don't operate on a file with two apps in the same time (I literally mean in the same exact moment). There are always ways to mess things up in a computer but in a normal situation this would work.

The fact that CO has an inner cache to store metadata can be both a safety and a weakness, but that's not the point. A real problem is that not all apps have an auto sync feature like CO so, if you don't manage to tell them to read and write the file, you can make problems arise. But auto sync feature is expected to work this way as I've explained earlier, freeing you from the task to manually instruct CO to read or write the XMP file. That means that Capture One should load any metadata change as soon as it's written by another app (that's it) and write it as soon as it's made through itself (that's it). But in the end, why it doesn't work properly or why it's not 100% reliable, I don't know. Conceptually there's nothing to prevent this from working except non standard(ized) things. Unfortunately this is common. For example Media Pro has more labels than CO and colors do not match exactly. I've also noted that everytime I told one app to write in the XMP file, its content completely changed. So, maybe there can be issues in the data structure or how they write informations that lead to unreliability.
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