The first ARM based laptop revealed. Will Phase One support?

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The first ARM based laptop revealed. Will Phase One support?

Postby NN635412303032341950UL » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:27 am

Today, Microsoft announced the first ARM-based laptop. Basically, all computers had to use either Intel or AMD but now, MS made the first laptop made of ARM which is also used for smartphones.

I have no idea how MS implant Window 10 on ARM-based CPU instead of Intel or AMD but it would be the first step to expand ARM-based computers.

So the question is, will Phase One adopt a new technology to support Capture One Pro on ARM-based laptops? Apple is going to announce ARM-based MacBook in 2020 so there is no doubt that both MS and Apple will start using ARM-based CPU and it would be interesting if Phase One can modify Capture One Pro for ARM-based computer.
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Re: The first ARM based laptop revealed. Will Phase One supp

Postby NN635949165556089107UL » Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:20 am

Yes, I have the same question too.

By the way, this is NOT the first ARM-based laptop :-) It's the first ARM-based "Surface", there have been Windows laptops that use ARM in the past 2 years.

I am hoping there will be a natively compiled executable for ARM CPU's so we don't get a performance penalty with x86 emulation.

I'm hoping it wouldn't be too hard for this to happen as Microsoft has been making it easier for devs to retarget their apps to be compiled for ARM platforms.

Developers can use Visual Studio 15.9 today to recompile apps – both UWP and C++ Win32 – to run natively on Windows 10 on ARM devices
- https://blogs.windows.com/windowsdevelo ... velopment/
Last edited by NN635949165556089107UL on Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The first ARM based laptop revealed. Will Phase One supp

Postby SFA » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:19 am

I have a Nokia phone running Windows from around the time Microsoft bought Nokia with he stated intention of becoming a big player in the mobile phone market.

I saw a report today that they are about to launch a new attempt at getting into the phone market - this time running Android.

It will be interesting to see how these projects play out.

Also how powerful and useful the ARM based devices may become as GPUs, batteries and heat dissipation systems improve.

And of course whether there is really a market (a profitable market) for the sort of devices that might be targeted for ARM type chips in the area of image processing that Phase aims for currently or has objectives to work with in the future.

On that point, since Phase clearly states in the forum information that it is a matter of policy to not speculate on future developments and not make any comments about what may be in development, I doubt that you will see much by way of responses - certainly not official responses.

Opening out the subject to more broadly discuss how ARM based devices could realistically be of benefit for photo creation and editing tasks and what they offer compared to existing technologies might be a useful thread. I think there is already one for the Apple products that offer similar opportunities over in the Mac centric area of the forum.


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Re: The first ARM based laptop revealed. Will Phase One supp

Postby Wesley » Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:14 pm

Ehhh...once Apple starts using ARM, it could get the ball rolling.

We don't even have an iPad version for C1 yet.
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Re: The first ARM based laptop revealed. Will Phase One supp

Postby NN635949165556089107UL » Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:07 pm

We don't even have an iPad version for C1 yet.


That's an orthogonal issue and would require porting the whole C1 app to Swift/Objective-C and all the GPU code from OpenGL/Cuda to iOS's Metal APIs.

Releasing C1 for Windows on ARM hopefully is mostly involve setting a different option in the Microsoft C++ compiler to compile for ARM instead of x86, and voila, you get the same app but compiled for ARM. Microsoft did all the hard work for us here

I'm not asking for Phase One to do any new development, the ask is for Phase One to compile C1 for ARM in addition to x86 and put both binaries on the download page, that's all :)

If it's as simple as "recompile" the /same/ code to produce an ARM version, I think there is a lot of value here Phase One and Windows on ARM users can get for free essentially.
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Re: The first ARM based laptop revealed. Will Phase One supp

Postby NN635412303032341950UL » Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:08 am

https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/2/2089 ... ows-fresco

It seems Adobe is going to bring CC apps to ARM-based devices such as Photoshop. Well, they already revealed a full version of Photoshop for iPad Pro and iPad Pro apps can also be used on macOS with macOS Catalina's project called Catalyst.

Adobe is one of the biggest software developing brand and it's a great news since ARM-based devices always had a lack of software and limited compatibility. But now, they are going to make some for Surface Pro X.

Apple suggested that they are going to make their first ARM-based MacBook in 2020 so I'm hoping that Phase One develop Capture One Pro for ARM-based devices soon.
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Re: The first ARM based laptop revealed. Will Phase One supp

Postby Wesley » Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:58 am

NN635949165556089107UL wrote:
We don't even have an iPad version for C1 yet.


That's an orthogonal issue and would require porting the whole C1 app to Swift/Objective-C and all the GPU code from OpenGL/Cuda to iOS's Metal APIs.

Releasing C1 for Windows on ARM hopefully is mostly involve setting a different option in the Microsoft C++ compiler to compile for ARM instead of x86, and voila, you get the same app but compiled for ARM. Microsoft did all the hard work for us here

I'm not asking for Phase One to do any new development, the ask is for Phase One to compile C1 for ARM in addition to x86 and put both binaries on the download page, that's all :)

If it's as simple as "recompile" the /same/ code to produce an ARM version, I think there is a lot of value here Phase One and Windows on ARM users can get for free essentially.

I should have said, "We don't even have Capture Pilot for Android yet".

I don't think Phase One goes by how easy it is to develop but instead how many photographers are using the platform and/or Phase's own needs. There's only Capture Pilot for iOS which gives a clue. I personally have never seen a photographer use an Android tablet in their workflow.

I'd assume the platform that would most likely pass Phase's threshold to get C1 developed on is the iPad. Microsoft got the ball rolling and should Apple make ARM laptop also than we can imagine C1 developed for it sooner than later.
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Re: The first ARM based laptop revealed. Will Phase One supp

Postby NN635949165556089107UL » Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:56 pm

I should have said, "We don't even have Capture Pilot for Android yet".

Same thing, that's still an orthogonal issue, in that scenario we'd have to port the app from Objective C into Java or Kotlin AND port iOS API's to the equivalent Android APIs :) That is a lot of development work.

We are not asking Phase One to spend development effort in writing new code to support new platforms if Microsoft's ARM64 SDK allows them to recompile their code as-is.

I don't think Phase One goes by how easy it is to develop

The point I'm making is, they likely don't need to do any new development or write any new code. Using their existing codebase, they likely already have the ability to produce an ARM-native executable which is enabled by Microsoft's tooling. We're just asking Phase one to "flip the switch" so they can put up an ARM-native package on their download page :)

(https://www.neowin.net/news/microsoft-f ... in32-apps/) Microsoft said that in most cases, it takes minimal effort to recompile an app for ARM64. It talked about OpenVPN and VLC, saying that neither company had to change a single line of code in its applications. Of course, if an app uses third-party libraries, it might take some work.


(https://www.thurrott.com/windows/window ... ows-10-arm)“To clarify, Microsoft is planning to release a preview of the Windows 10 ARM64 SDK for Store and desktop apps, allowing developers to recompile their Win32 desktop apps to ARM64 so they can run natively without emulation,” the Microsoft representative told me. “With the SDK, x64 apps and x86 apps will also be able to recompile to ARM64 and run natively. We will be sharing more details on the ARM64 SDK Preview at Build.”


Fingers crossed :D
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Re: The first ARM based laptop revealed. Will Phase One supp

Postby rc_photo » Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:27 pm

Hm,

when looking at the current requirements
Capture One 12.1.3
September 10th 2019

We recommend that your computer has at least the minimum specifications outlined below to run Capture One.

Mac System requirements

MacOS 10.12, 10.13, or 10.14
Intel CPU with 2 cores
10 GB free disk space
8 GB of RAM

Windows System requirements

Windows 7® SP1 64-bit, Windows 8.1® 64-bit, or
Windows 10® 64-bit
Intel or AMD CPU with 2 cores
10 GB free disk space
8 GB of RAM

If working with high-resolution images and doing calculation-heavy adjustments we recommend the following:
• Intel CPU with 4+ cores
• 16+ GB of RAM
• Solid State Disk (SSD)
• Dual (matching) Graphics card from NVIDIA or AMD with 4GB+ RAM per card
•Calibrated monitor with at least 1920x1200, 24-bit resolution at 96dpi


I don't think that any (at least commercially available) ARM based system would be able to fulfill similar requirements.
Not to mention the difference in processing power between ARM and Intel/AMD CPUs...

I have serious doubts that Phase One releases Capture One for ARM based systems in the near future...
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Re: The first ARM based laptop revealed. Will Phase One supp

Postby SFA » Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:30 pm

The question that comes to mind is ...

Just because it will exist is that any good reason to use it?
Last edited by SFA on Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The first ARM based laptop revealed. Will Phase One supp

Postby NN635412303032341950UL » Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:56 pm

rc_photo wrote:Hm,

when looking at the current requirements
Capture One 12.1.3
September 10th 2019

We recommend that your computer has at least the minimum specifications outlined below to run Capture One.

Mac System requirements

MacOS 10.12, 10.13, or 10.14
Intel CPU with 2 cores
10 GB free disk space
8 GB of RAM

Windows System requirements

Windows 7® SP1 64-bit, Windows 8.1® 64-bit, or
Windows 10® 64-bit
Intel or AMD CPU with 2 cores
10 GB free disk space
8 GB of RAM

If working with high-resolution images and doing calculation-heavy adjustments we recommend the following:
• Intel CPU with 4+ cores
• 16+ GB of RAM
• Solid State Disk (SSD)
• Dual (matching) Graphics card from NVIDIA or AMD with 4GB+ RAM per card
•Calibrated monitor with at least 1920x1200, 24-bit resolution at 96dpi


I don't think that any (at least commercially available) ARM based system would be able to fulfill similar requirements.
Not to mention the difference in processing power between ARM and Intel/AMD CPUs...

I have serious doubts that Phase One releases Capture One for ARM based systems in the near future...


ARM chips that Apple makes have enough power to compete with Intel Mobile H series CPU. So there is no reason for not able to support C1P.
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Re: The first ARM based laptop revealed. Will Phase One supp

Postby NN635412303032341950UL » Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:03 am

SFA wrote:The quetion that comes to mind is ...

Just because it will exist is that any good reason to use it?


ARM chips consume less power, less heat, and yet powerful enough to compete with Intel H series CPU. Apple will eventually replace all MacBook series to their own chips which they use for both iPhone and iPad. Because Intel is not able to improve their CPU processing since 2015 and now AMD is taking Intel's market share every year.

Believe it or not, Apple WILL ditch Intel CPU starting from 2020 starting with the MacBook series.
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Re: The first ARM based laptop revealed. Will Phase One supp

Postby NN635949165556089107UL » Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:12 pm

If Phase One can beat Adobe to the punch and get their apps compiled for ARM64, that'd be awesome, I plan on getting Surface Pro X and would like to stick with Capture One if possible.


With an ARM chipset, Microsoft took the time to bring Adobe onstage, as Adobe products are often shown running on Surface PCs, and one thing that's not currently supported on ARM64 is Adobe's Creative Cloud suite.

The company showed off its new Fresco app, but it's actually working to bring its entire Creative Cloud suite to ARM64. Windows on ARM PCs are able to emulate Intel apps, but only 32-bit ones. Many of the Adobe CC apps are 64-bit Intel only.

What's completely unclear here is the actual timing for when this will be available. Adobe actually has a lot of work to do to get CC running natively on ARM. A lot of the company's code is really old, and it needs to be modernized.

But the good news is that the commitment is there. It might not be coming all that soon like Fresco is, but it will be here eventually.

(source: https://www.neowin.net/news/adobe-is-wo ... 10-on-arm/)
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Re: The first ARM based laptop revealed. Will Phase One supp

Postby Wesley » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:02 am

NN635949165556089107UL wrote:If Phase One can beat Adobe to the punch and get their apps compiled for ARM64, that'd be awesome, I plan on getting Surface Pro X and would like to stick with Capture One if possible.


With an ARM chipset, Microsoft took the time to bring Adobe onstage, as Adobe products are often shown running on Surface PCs, and one thing that's not currently supported on ARM64 is Adobe's Creative Cloud suite.

The company showed off its new Fresco app, but it's actually working to bring its entire Creative Cloud suite to ARM64. Windows on ARM PCs are able to emulate Intel apps, but only 32-bit ones. Many of the Adobe CC apps are 64-bit Intel only.

What's completely unclear here is the actual timing for when this will be available. Adobe actually has a lot of work to do to get CC running natively on ARM. A lot of the company's code is really old, and it needs to be modernized.

But the good news is that the commitment is there. It might not be coming all that soon like Fresco is, but it will be here eventually.

(source: https://www.neowin.net/news/adobe-is-wo ... 10-on-arm/)

How much money did Microsoft pay to get Adobe to modernize their code? :lol:

As Phase One reps always say, send a message to support so they can gauge the interest.
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Re: The first ARM based laptop revealed. Will Phase One supp

Postby pope » Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:18 pm

Well, I asked a question through the support page. Count me down as interested.

I think I saw that the Surface Pro X will have 8 cores, so that could be good. But I'm not sure what the GPU support since that's custom.
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