Files are Over Saturated

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Files are Over Saturated

Postby NNN635018233259472077 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:45 am

I'm shooting with a D810 and I'm finding that the files with CO12 are looking more saturated as normal. Is anyone else finding that the files are over saturated. I'm finding that the files are about 20% over saturated. I have set the proofing to sRGB and the output sRBG as well. Does anyone have a solutions other than setting all the files -20%.

Please let me know if anyone else is running into this issue.

Paul
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Re: Files are Over Saturated

Postby Paul_Steunebrink » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:08 am

NNN635018233259472077 wrote:I'm shooting with a D810 and I'm finding that the files with CO12 are looking more saturated as normal.

What is normal, I mean, you apparently compare it to something else. What are you comparing with what?

Are you comparing the output with the preview, for example?
Best regards,
Paul E. Steunebrink, Image Alchemist (website All about Capture One), Capture One trainer
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Re: Files are Over Saturated

Postby SFA » Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:49 pm

Just for info.

If you are using an output recipe that is set to sRGB and you set the Proofing to the recipe (Set Recipe Proofing) then the ICC profile from the Recipe will be used to emulate the appearance.

What are you using for the Curve setting in the Base Characteristics tool?



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Re: Files are Over Saturated

Postby NNN635018233259472077 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:38 pm

So I have been auditioning other raw converters since CO increased there prices for the upgrade with very little in return except for bug fixes and a "New UI". So I'm looking for a replacement for CO and have been looking at Exposure X4 as a potential replacement. Comparing the two, I have noticed that the CO file with the default settings (Auto curve and Generic D810 profile) requires -20 to look good compared to the X4 rendition.

Since I wrote that note, I discovered that if I increase the exposure to the file in CO, it diminishes the over saturation but it doesn't really remove it. I discovered that the X4 rendition is a bit brighter than the CO's so perhaps that was the problem. However, overall, I have found since CO11.3 and 12, the saturation in the files has increased. The other thing I noticed was that if I adjust the color temp, it seems to remove the saturation. The X4 did not require any color temp or saturation modifications to look good. Of course I'm focusing on skin tones and nothing else so maybe for other types of photography it works well.

So far, the X4 image quality is almost as good as CO's and it offers many of the options I have been begging CO over the years to improve such as the watermarking feature, a better brush tool and adding styles as a freebie. To my amazement, they were all in X4.

I'd like to know if anyone else has the over saturation issue, or if it's only me. Maybe there is a bug in the color temp when opening a file when reading the files color temp.

Thanks for the responses.

Paul
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Re: Files are Over Saturated

Postby IanS » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:50 am

NNN635018233259472077 wrote:So I have been auditioning other raw converters since CO increased there prices for the upgrade with very little in return except for bug fixes and a "New UI". So I'm looking for a replacement for CO and have been looking at Exposure X4 as a potential replacement. Comparing the two, I have noticed that the CO file with the default settings (Auto curve and Generic D810 profile) requires -20 to look good compared to the X4 rendition.

Since I wrote that note, I discovered that if I increase the exposure to the file in CO, it diminishes the over saturation but it doesn't really remove it. I discovered that the X4 rendition is a bit brighter than the CO's so perhaps that was the problem. However, overall, I have found since CO11.3 and 12, the saturation in the files has increased. The other thing I noticed was that if I adjust the color temp, it seems to remove the saturation. The X4 did not require any color temp or saturation modifications to look good. Of course I'm focusing on skin tones and nothing else so maybe for other types of photography it works well.

So far, the X4 image quality is almost as good as CO's and it offers many of the options I have been begging CO over the years to improve such as the watermarking feature, a better brush tool and adding styles as a freebie. To my amazement, they were all in X4.

I'd like to know if anyone else has the over saturation issue, or if it's only me. Maybe there is a bug in the color temp when opening a file when reading the files color temp.

Thanks for the responses.

Paul


Judging saturation is always difficult as what is oversaturated to one person on their monitor may be viewed differently by another on their monitor. Perhaps post some examples as that would help?

The other aspect is that colour/saturation is impacted by the tone curve/contrast. This is why C1Pro has the luma curve which allows contrast to be varied without impacting colours. Most raw converters do not have this kind of control and previously you needed to go to PS for example and use luminosity blending.

There was a thread on DPR about this some time ago and when I looked at the supplied raw file it appeared that the Auto curve was raising saturation. Although it has to be said that when I showed the two images to people everyone preferred the C1default. That is not to say the C1Pro is correct simply that nuances like this are very personal and it could always be down to differences with monitors etc. Try this experiment and see if it sheds any light on the issues you are having. Change the curve under base characteristic from Auto to linear. Then use the Auto adjust button on the top toolbar to set your levels, HDR and Exposure and then tweak the curves/contrast to taste.

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Re: Files are Over Saturated

Postby SFA » Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:58 pm

NNN635018233259472077 wrote:I'm shooting with a D810 and I'm finding that the files with CO12 are looking more saturated as normal.


I don't recall any notes for changes in the processing engine between V11.3/V12 compared to V11.2 and earlier.

And I have not observed the same changes as you have described.

I'm not processing D810 files but I can't imagine that would have been a factor for change - it's not exactly a new camera these days and I would doubt that it would still be attracting "under the hood" changes for settings and file interpretation.

If you have older images created with previous versions of C1 using an earlier engine you can open them create a cloned variant and then for the newly created variant update the processing engine to V12 to see if it looks any different. From V11.2 to 11.3 or 12 I would not expect to see much change unless the image has a lot of advanced processing and layers that might have been subject to some sort of tweaking in the processing. (I can't think to which that comment might relate at the moment.) For the layers one could simply turn them off to see if a difference is visible in the background layer.

Another possible variable to consider would be Windows updates.

I'm running V7 so nothing much changes. If you are running V10 it's possible that there are more variables to consider.

Also, do you use Auto settings for exposure, WB, etc. or do you stay with the default results offered on import?


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Re: Files are Over Saturated

Postby NNN635018233259472077 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:43 pm

Thanks for all the useful suggestions and tips. Frankly, it's just easier to note that there is a change, perceived or not, and work with the files to get the look I'm looking for. Adjusting the saturation to -20 is much faster than sleuthing an issue for Phase One. I have seen changes to the images from one version to another since V7 when I started using CO. Is it me or is it CO? Who knows? I just see it on my calibrated monitor and now I know just to deal with it!

Thanks for all the help and suggestions.

Paul
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Re: Files are Over Saturated

Postby SFA » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:15 pm

NNN635018233259472077 wrote:Thanks for all the useful suggestions and tips. Frankly, it's just easier to note that there is a change, perceived or not, and work with the files to get the look I'm looking for. Adjusting the saturation to -20 is much faster than sleuthing an issue for Phase One. I have seen changes to the images from one version to another since V7 when I started using CO. Is it me or is it CO? Who knows? I just see it on my calibrated monitor and now I know just to deal with it!

Thanks for all the help and suggestions.

Paul


If the Engine version changes then that is CO advising that something is different in the way processing is performed and there may be noticeable differences to previously edited images. Which is why the processing engine is not automatically updated for every image opened with a newer version.

So long as you have a way of dealing with the apparent problem that is all that matters - you are right. Doing a little investigation might help you to identify when you might expect to apply certain changes and when they are unlikely to be needed. Of course there may be other approaches to the perceived problem. Saturation alone seems like an odd thing to be a cause of a processing anomaly from one version to another.

Calibrated monitors are only one part of a long chain of variables in a processing system. Are you running at the same brightness that you have always used?

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Re: Files are Over Saturated

Postby NNN635018233259472077 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:04 pm

Paul[/quote]
Calibrated monitors are only one part of a long chain of variables in a processing system. Are you running at the same brightness that you have always used?
Grant[/quote]

Hi Grant,

I have a i1Display Pro to calibrate all my monitors and laptop to 120 Cd/m2. I feel confident that my monitors are calibrated properly. They are calibrated to a wide gamut color profile. Both my monitors are Adobe 1998 color space. My 4K laptop is sRGB color space.

In my journey to potentially replace CO this year, I have discovered how raw converters open my "old" D810 camera files. It's been an interesting journey of discovery. I've learned that each raw converter addresses the files differently, and I would have to adjust my workflow no matter what. If CO didn't piss me off so much by charging me double the cost and giving me nothing in return, I wouldn't have discovered this.

Anyways, CO is still my preferred converter for this year, and then I'll see what happens to Alien Skin Exposure. If CO actually looks at it's competition and see what tools everyday photographers need, and maybe they'll actually throw resources to truly update it,and catch up to the competition. There's lots of good raw converters now out there to choose from.

Best Regards,

Paul
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Re: Files are Over Saturated

Postby Peter.Brockhausen » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:35 pm

NNN635018233259472077 wrote: If CO actually looks at it's competition and see what tools everyday photographers need, and maybe they'll actually throw resources to truly update it,and catch up to the competition.


That statement makes me smile...
For their target group, CO1 is the best raw converter on the market, I think. I won't say that it can't even be better.
Or do you know a raw converter which is better for tethered shooting, studio work, medium format Phase One cameras, etc. ...

They don't want to be "THE" Lightroom or Aperture replacement - like On1 or Skylum claim e.g. I have never read this by Phase One, may be I missed it.

And may be, your are just not part of the target group? That is nothing which is good or bad. At some point, when on has realized this, one should look for something different. Good luck!

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Re: Files are Over Saturated

Postby SFA » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:52 pm

NNN635018233259472077 wrote: There's lots of good raw converters now out there to choose from.



Maybe so but if one looks at camera sales other than those included with mobile devices, it may be that there are fewer and fewer people interested in the converters.

My kids bought decent Canon consumer dSLRs a few years ago. They only ever use their phone cameras.

I don't think they are unrepresentative of the market. And of course it was pretty much like that in the days of film. Many cameras sold rarely saw film (or rarely saw a new film loaded.)


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Re: Files are Over Saturated

Postby NNN635018233259472077 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:58 pm

SFA wrote:
NNN635018233259472077 wrote: There's lots of good raw converters now out there to choose from.



Maybe so but if one looks at camera sales other than those included with mobile devices, it may be that there are fewer and fewer people interested in the converters.

My kids bought decent Canon consumer dSLRs a few years ago. They only ever use their phone cameras.

I don't think they are unrepresentative of the market. And of course it was pretty much like that in the days of film. Many cameras sold rarely saw film (or rarely saw a new film loaded.)


Grant

Hi Grant,

I completely agree with your assessment. My kids are the same. Even I use my camera phone for quickie moments and then get made because the image quality sucks. I enjoyed taking photos with my compact 110 camera too.

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Re: Files are Over Saturated

Postby Keith Reeder » Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:53 am

NNN635018233259472077 wrote:Please let me know if anyone else is running into this issue.

Yep - some of us have been complaining about it for years.

Try a profile from an older camera - there's definitely a trend that "newer" (in relative terms) camera profiles are far more biased to overly warm than the profiles from older bodies.

Try the D700 profile, say.
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Re: Files are Over Saturated

Postby NNN635018233259472077 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:24 pm

Keith Reeder wrote:
NNN635018233259472077 wrote:Please let me know if anyone else is running into this issue.

Yep - some of us have been complaining about it for years.

Try a profile from an older camera - there's definitely a trend that "newer" (in relative terms) camera profiles are far more biased to overly warm than the profiles from older bodies.

Try the D700 profile, say.


Hi Keith,

WOW! I'm not imagining this issue! It's nice to see that Phase One is listening to the voice of the customer. You've only been asking for this several years? I've been asking for an update for the Watermark tool since V7. Wonder how long that is? I wonder which customers Phase One is listening too?

I'll try to use a different profile and see how it goes. More importantly, is there a way for me to modify a CO profile and save it for myself for use with my workflow. Really, I want to take the D810 profile and make it -20 saturation. That would solve my problem.

Any advise would be great!

Paul
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Re: Files are Over Saturated

Postby SFA » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:11 pm

Paul,

As an example using the Exposure tool ...

Change your Saturation to the level you feel you usually need to adjust by.

Click on the "..." symbol in the top right corner of the tool.

Then select "Save as defaults for ...."

C1 will then use those values whenever you import images from that camera.

If you don't want to reset the Defaults click on the symbol to the left of the 3 dots and save as a Preset.

You can then load the preset by default whenever you import a RAW file from the camera.

Or for more flexibility when editing you could add the preset as a Layer when editing.

I suspect you might get even better results adjusting a few other tools and the saving the whole lot as a "Style" but we can come back to that later if you want to.


HTH.


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