Are LCCs camera/lens specific?

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Are LCCs camera/lens specific?

Postby C-M-B » Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:57 pm

I rented a Fuji GFX 50s and created some LCC profiles with the 120mm Macro since I'm not really happy with the automatic Fuji profile corrections (it doesn't seem like they're working at all), and now I've tried applying them to an image made with a different GFX 50s and a different 120mm Macro - but it doesn't apply the profile (not even the luminance correction).

Are LCC profiles specific to each camera / lens? It would make sense but if so, that should be noted somewhere I think...
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Re: Are LCCs camera/lens specific?

Postby Paul_Steunebrink » Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:15 pm

No, LCC profiles are not specific for a copy of lens or camera.

To understand that an existing profile does not apply, could you tell us more about the steps you take to do that?
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Re: Are LCCs camera/lens specific?

Postby C-M-B » Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:28 pm

Interesting!

I create the LCC and copy/paste settings to another image, just as I've done before with other cameras and lenses.

The weird thing is, that the "Uniform Light" slider is set to 100 but "Color Cast", "Dust Removal" and "Enable Uniform Light" are greyed out and there's no change in the image.

It works when I use it between different lenses on the same camera but not between cameras - so I guess it really is camera specific. After all Color Cast and Dust Removal only makes sense when it's used on the same camera...
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Re: Are LCCs camera/lens specific?

Postby Paul_Steunebrink » Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:04 pm

Just to be precise, I think an LCC profile is camera specific (as you say) meaning that you can not apply an LCC profile on an image that was created from an image made with another camera.

But it is not specific to a copy of a camera: two identical models of a camera can share an LCC profile. And I thought that that was your initial question.

Applying an LCC is not a matter of copying adjustments. You have to apply the LCC that you created from the reference image.
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Re: Are LCCs camera/lens specific?

Postby C-M-B » Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:22 pm

Well I have two files from two GFX 50s cameras and you can't share LCC profiles.

You can actually just create an LCC profile and copy&paste the adjustements from that image to another, which will also copy that specific LCC setting. I never had an issue with that.

I even tried to save the LCC profile from one GFX 50s camera and then apply it to the image from a different GFX 50s camera but that didn't work either. It only worked for the same camera.
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Re: Are LCCs camera/lens specific?

Postby SFA » Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:01 am

Are the shots you are working with using the same in-camera settings? Especially any film emulation settings?

I rather suspect that the way things work for Fuji cameras is very specific to Fuji cameras and there may be some settings relationships that compromise some forms of sharing.

My guess is that at this time the best source of useful information would likely be the guys at Phase who have implemented the Fuji based processing.


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Re: Are LCCs camera/lens specific?

Postby C-M-B » Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:41 am

As these are RAW images no film emulation settings can have any effect on anything.

I really think it has to be camera specific, after all a different Phase back could/would have different Color Cast settings and 100% different Dust Removal settings.

I mean the important thing is that it works on the same camera - after all I always create LCCs for every shoot after every change of lens/aperture so the camera always stays the same during the shoot anyway.
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Re: Are LCCs camera/lens specific?

Postby SFA » Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:59 am

C-M-B wrote:As these are RAW images no film emulation settings can have any effect on anything.



Not necessarily so in that the Film emulations are set as curves in base characteristics in the case of Fuji. So the "default" curve is set to whatever the in-camera setting was set to.

That is, afaik, different in terms of the process than for any other cameras (although not all Fuji cameras can use that approach).

So the process is using different steps and once that happens it's probably dangerous to assume that all related features and functions that act on steps in the process when applied to other cameras will still have the same effects with the new process flow.

Most likely they probably SHOULD (or be restricted) but there is no guarantee that they WILL.

All of that written, I'm not sure that copy and applying an LCC file, other than one shot explicitly for the purpose at the time of creation of the target shoots or very close to it, is generally a good idea unless specifically set up for the purpose. My understanding is the the LCC functionality is meant to be used in a very specific way in specific circumstances. That would suggest that copy and paste would need to be used with some care.

I may be wrong.

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Re: Are LCCs camera/lens specific?

Postby C-M-B » Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:48 pm

I know its main purpose was to deal with lens movements when using a digital back on a technical camera - but I've been using the copy&paste thing mainly for removing vignetting and dust during studio sessions with regular lenses without any movements with fantastic results.

This provides me (and my clients) with very clean images with very little effort and it's noticeably better than using a given profile (which does not account for anything like color casts or sensor issues with color casts anyway.


Regarding the Film emulation settings in the curves - I have not found that any(!) setting or adjustments to the RAW file has any effect on LCC generation or the transfer of these LCC profiles to another image with different settings via copy/paste.

That includes Film Emulation settings, which are after all not a change to the image data per se, it's just an adjustment that is applied to the RAW image in the RAW editor. Before Fuji Film Emulations were available as curves in Capture One 12 (or was it 11.something?) the RAW images just had a standard profile applied, even when they were taken with a B&W emulation.
That's why it can be changes during and after import and that's why it couldn't really affect anything about the LCC generation...
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Re: Are LCCs camera/lens specific?

Postby Paul_Steunebrink » Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:19 pm

Could you ask Phase One vision on this via a support case? I would be interested to learn their opinion.
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Re: Are LCCs camera/lens specific?

Postby C-M-B » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:51 am

No need to bother Phase One - I just stumbled upon the answer myself :oops:

according to https://www.phaseone.com/Search/Article ... cleid=2047


An LCC file is restricted for use only with the serial number of the individual back. Since sensors are unique and the camera calibration files that our R&D team develops for each sensor is unique, the LCC files can only be used with raw files from that same specific camera.


So it's reasonable to assume that LCC profiles are still 'coded' to the back/camera serial number today... without that it won't work.

And that makes perfect sense - each sensor has specific characteristics and will have its own kind of color cast and dust particles, maybe a different firmware version,.... all that will results in potentially unwanted effects. If one sensor has a weak cyan color cast and nother hast a slight magenta color cast, swapping LCC profiles would deliver pretty bad "corrections".

So to keep things short: LCC files are bound to the serial number of the back/camera.
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Re: Are LCCs camera/lens specific?

Postby Paul_Steunebrink » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:27 pm

Thanks for refreshing my memory :mrgreen:
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