Shame about the Catalogue function...

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Shame about the Catalogue function...

Postby Tonyh-s » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:37 pm

I had hoped the 'under the hood' improvements would speed up the catalogue/library part of Capture One on Windows. It hasn't. Capture One takes 4mins 56 seconds to open up a 21,000 photo catalogue, this compares with 48 seconds for Lightroom v6.

When Phase One decide to work on making the Catalogue usable I will finally be able to ditch Lightroom. At the moment it still is unusable for me as anything other than a very good RAW editor.

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Re: Shame about the Catalogue function...

Postby IanS » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:08 pm

What system are you on? I run a 6 year old desktop, Win 10 latest. It does have a fast CPU (OC 4.3GHz) and I use a SATA ssd. 65,000 image catalogue just opened in around 25s.

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Re: Shame about the Catalogue function...

Postby David532 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:59 pm

IanS wrote:What system are you on? I run a 6 year old desktop, Win 10 latest. It does have a fast CPU (OC 4.3GHz) and I use a SATA ssd. 65,000 image catalogue just opened in around 25s.

Ian

But can you search the whole catalogue for a particular picture using the advanced search function 25 seconds after launching the application?
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Re: Shame about the Catalogue function...

Postby NN635703747768845601UL » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:18 pm

Just for comparison: my Lightroom catalog is almost 300,000 images and loads in about 17 sec. It also populate the highest level folder with number of images total and automatically adds new subfolders when asked to sync. Like to switch to Cap One but the db management of LR is well done and raw processor is very acceptable out of the box. Done a lot of research on this and Cap One appears to be very session oriented in design rather than db-catalog oriented. (SATA II Raid and old, but fast processor).
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Re: Shame about the Catalogue function...

Postby Phil121 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:31 pm

I have been pleased with the considerable increase in speed of v12 over v11, including the catalogue access.

One of the "features" that cripples the catalogue function is the setting for auto-sync sidecar xmp. If that setting (image metadata) is set to anything other than "None", you can get a coffee whilst it opens the catalogue. With it set to "None", it opens up nearly as quickly as LRm. Not perfect, but acceptable.
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Re: Shame about the Catalogue function...

Postby Franz1 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:07 am

Hmm, I do have a folder with all my RAW files and some JPG/Movies containing about 48000 images, my LR loads in ~10 sec and the C1 took some hours to import the tree but now it's loading it in 10 sec's as well!
By the way, it's 1.2 TB on a harddrive!
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Re: Shame about the Catalogue function...

Postby Tonyh-s » Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:11 am

Hi All, thanks for all the comments. I am using an i7-3770 @3.4ghz with 24GB of installed Ram and Windows 10. I must admit, I have not tried to search before it has finished installing all the thumbnails as the disk drive is running full pelt and I did not want to slow it down.
I will try switching off the auto sync as well.
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Re: Shame about the Catalogue function...

Postby IanL » Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:51 pm

Phil121 wrote:One of the "features" that cripples the catalogue function is the setting for auto-sync sidecar xmp. If that setting (image metadata) is set to anything other than "None", you can get a coffee whilst it opens the catalogue.


Good to know. I'll have to experiment. The problem I have is with that is two fold. Since there is no built in support for geotagging I have to do it from outside C1. That means I need that setting to read metadata from the side car files. And two I don't like the idea of basic metadata only in a database so I like things set up to write changes to the side cars.

I could just swallow #2 and manually trigger an update for #1. I suppose... I'll have to compare.
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Re: Shame about the Catalogue function...

Postby SFA » Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:06 pm

I don't have any identified need for syncing so have no experience with it in C1 but it is something I have used, in principle, in commercial software for database work - usually connected with one-off operation to update records for system conversion ans similar.

Much of this sort of activity does not have to be done in real time and for most records is a 'one off' activity if the data offered in the first pass is correct.

The process are usually run in a batch mode of some sort rather than interactively in real time every time a record (or in this case a file) is opened. Highly interactive database updates need to be handled differently of course but then one would design the system to cater for that specific requirement.

Can sidecar file synchronization be managed as a batch update in order to eliminate any possible performance impacts on catalogue or session opening? Or would this not work well for most people?



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Re: Shame about the Catalogue function...

Postby Phil121 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:24 pm

I do geotagging using an ios app "geotagphotos". It records a gps location file on the iphone, and I have set it up to send the resulting file to dropbox. Back at the desk, I copy my cf card into the computer with meaningful folder names, then use the companion windows program to plonk the gps info into the raw files. Then I import the results into the c1 catalogue. It's quite a quick process.

I treat the c1 catalogue with all the reverence I give to the raw files, taking a proper stream of backups, so I'm happy that all my keywording and so on lives only in the catalogue. If I need to export it, it's easy to get the xmp files at that time.

The problem with autosyncing the xmp files is that C1 creates (and reads/writes) xmp files for each raw, even if there's no need - i.e. no metadata to record other than software name. At least, it did when I first switched from LR to C1, which is when I got the hump with Adobe's subscription system. Haven't checked the later versions.

I improved my catalogue speed by making sure all the xmp data was recorded inside the catalogue, then actually deleting all 40000 xmp files. Be careful about doing that! Acronis is your friend!

Good luck
Phil

PS the luminance masking is brilliant. Well worth the upgrade price by itself.
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Re: Shame about the Catalogue function...

Postby SFA » Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:31 pm

Phil121 wrote:
PS the luminance masking is brilliant. Well worth the upgrade price by itself.


I'm leaning towards the same conclusion.

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Re: Shame about the Catalogue function...

Postby Thomas Achermann » Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:12 am

...Capture One takes 4mins 56 seconds to open up a 21,000 photo catalogue...

65,000 image catalogue just opened in around 25s


From what I see, therein lies the issue...CO opens the catalog quite fast but if you then happen to select "All Images" (which you have to if you want to filter for any metadata) or any folder containing a large amount on images, it takes ages to "scan" your image library.
I had a long discussion with support about this some time ago and the answer was that "CO scans for the image files to be online". But if you look at the folder tab in CO during this initial scan, you can clearly see that all the metadata is being collected during the scan (count on stars or color flags constantly increase and keywords are being populated). If all that information were written in the database it would be available at startup in an instant (just like in Lightroom).

Now that Phase One have killed off Media Pro, it would be wise for them to invest engineering time into the DAM side of CO...in my opinion there is much to be improved there, including keywords which is another weak point.

One of the "features" that cripples the catalogue function is the setting for auto-sync sidecar xmp


I had the same problem in the beginning. The tip I got from support was to use "Sync metadata" manually. Just select the images in question and then choose "sync metadata" from the "..." menu in the metadata tool. (I do that after having keyworded the images in CO in order to write them to the xmp files - just like the Save command in LR)
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Re: Shame about the Catalogue function...

Postby NNN636486861985644723 » Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:51 pm

Thomas Achermann wrote:
I had a long discussion with support about this some time ago and the answer was that "CO scans for the image files to be online". But if you look at the folder tab in CO during this initial scan, you can clearly see that all the metadata is being collected during the scan (count on stars or color flags constantly increase and keywords are being populated). If all that information were written in the database it would be available at startup in an instant (just like in Lightroom).


I think that support description is accurate. All metadata is already available in DB. To check that, I have created a smart collection based on a keyword and rating>2. After that:
- choose an empty folder. As C1 remembers last folder/collection, after restart it will be fast
- restart C1
- choose your 'test' smart collection - to display it, keywords and ratings are needed
- if 'test' collection is small, it opens practically instantaneously

So it seems that when you click on 'All Images' it is slow not because it needs to update metadata but rather is scanning files to verify that they are online. And it shows information for 'confirmed' files only, so data in Rating/Keywords etc. is updated while scanning.

I think that to make catalog fast, all that is needed would be just to create a new preference option: 'Do not check for online files'!

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Re: Shame about the Catalogue function...

Postby Ian3 » Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:52 pm

I've seen advice on here before that it is a good idea before you close a catalog to make sure that it is not on All Images, so that it opens faster next time.

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Re: Shame about the Catalogue function...

Postby easycass » Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:55 am

I haven't tried v12 yet, as I was rather disappointed that no improvements were made to the keywording functionality (i.e. no filter of keywords on export, no synonym support, etc).

However, I did a lot of work into making my 75000 image catalogue super fast in C1 v11.

Side-Car Files
Most people still wish to use side-car files for 'back-up' or ' more data in xmp than the catalog'. For me however, backup is achieved easily by storing backups of the catalogue DB, which is far more efficient that managing and syncing sidecar files. Additionally, the DB actually contains the same (or more) information that what is stored in the XMP files. To test this, once everything is imported, just take your image drive(s) offline. All the information is still there in C1, metedata, settings, keywords and image adjustments. If I need files with XMP files, these can be generated/exported as necessary, although it is not often I have needed that. I set the system to automatically ask me on every exit if I wish to backup, so I keep multiple copies of the DB on a date basis.

Database Opening Issues
As for slowness, I did have this problem opening the catalog initially. There are two things I could see happening on opening: 1) A pie-progress counter at the top would show, and 2) the filters panel would start counting up all items (rating, color labels, keywords, metadata etc) from zero. Very slow and frustrating, and made everything unresponsive.

After some research, I found the pie-progress bar indicated a database/cache check and is normal, but the filter re-counting actually happened each time due to a database integrity issue that C1 is trying to resolve. It is this latter of the two processes that is slowing things down.

Fixing Filter Re-Counting
The filter panel re-counting issue can be resolved by using the File/Verify Catalog function. However, this verification/repair does not always work if trying to do it on an open database. Therefore, it needs to be done in a specific way, as follows: -

1. Cataloging - Make sure that all preview images have been produced, and all the filtered meta data has been updated (all the filter panel counters are stopped and no 'pie-progress' bar at the top).
2. Backup Main DB - Backup your main database using File/Backup Catalog menu function.
3. Open Temporary DB - Open a new temporary database using the File/New Catalog or open an existing temporary database (I keep one specifically for this purpose and just open it using File/Open Recent when I need to).
4. Verify and Repair Main DB - Now use the menu function File/Verify Catalog or Session..., and select your main database file. If an error comes up, then hit repair.
5. Open Main DB - Switch back to open your main database using File/Open... or File/Open Recent.

You may need to go through this complete process a couple of times. It worked for me, so worth a try if having DB opening up issues.

After this, when I open the 75000 image database, with or without the drive connected, and with All Images selected, my filter panel is populated immediately, all in about 10 seconds, and all I see is the rotating 'pie-progress' at the top going through (DB/cache checking). I have very quick response, can filter and view other folders etc immediately, with little delay. Still maybe not as quick as LR, but not bad...

Hope that helps some of you.
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