Color Readout PROBLEMS!!!

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Color Readout PROBLEMS!!!

Postby Bob Graham, Jr. » Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:16 pm

PROBLEM: When I have more than one image selected for editing and I use the COLOR READOUT to get color readout info in just one image that I want to use it in... why does it pop into all the selected images when I DO NOT want COLOR READOUT point in those images.

Let's say you're editing a room that you took 4 different photos and you need to color balance all 4 photos taken in the room. The COLOR READOUT tool places points in places you DO NOT want them to be in all of the other photos. When you try removing them, it removes the one you wanted. You try adding COLOR READOUT points in the other photos and before long you have COLOR READOUT points all over the place.

Why can't I place a COLOR READOUT point in one photo at a time... where I want too???????????

I have been asking for SEVERAL YEARS NOW FOR YOU TO FIX THIS PROBLEM!!! Can you give me a good reason why you have NOT FIXED THIS PROBLEM.

If you are reading this post and are having the same problem... can you please add your thoughts to this post. If you are reading this post and think my request is invalid please share your thoughts.

PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE THIS POST Like you did before. I need valid reasons for why I must accept your lack of interest in FIXING THIS COLOR READOUT PROBLEM!
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Re: Color Readout PROBLEMS!!!

Postby Ian3 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:09 pm

Does this still happen if you toggle off the edit all selected variants option?

Ian
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Re: Color Readout PROBLEMS!!!

Postby tenmangu81 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:07 pm

Ian3 wrote:Does this still happen if you toggle off the edit all selected variants option?

Ian


Yes it does. I never realised that, as I don't use colour readouts on more than one picture selected, and I delete them when I don't need them any longer.
And I've been very surprised that, even when the pictures are NOT selected when you chose the colour readout positions, these positions are automatically displayed and applied on ALL my pictures, i.e. as soon as I select a new picture, I can see the colour readouts at the same positions as in my first edited image. Unbelievable !!

Bob, I guess you did submit a request at the Phase One support, didn't you ?
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Re: Color Readout PROBLEMS!!!

Postby Bob Graham, Jr. » Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:46 pm

Yes I have submitted this problem to Support many times over the past few years. Thank you for your comments and support!
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Re: Color Readout PROBLEMS!!!

Postby SFA » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:40 pm

I don't use the colour readouts a lot compared to some people but once in a while I spend several hours with the and how they work now seems quite logical to me. Especially if one is trying to assess colour match or difference between two variants of the same image or very similar images within a set of images - which is how I would imagine the feature would be most likely to be useful and therefore be used.

Yes there are some limitations that require workarounds of you wish to try to check the response of colours to adjustments across images where the target check point is not at exactly the same pixel position, However I'm not really sure how one could 'fix' that without developing a much more complex an cumbersome approach.

That's not to say I don't see your point although if you are only looking at the colour in one image at a time simply changing the Viewer mode to Single image rather than multiple might help you.

By the way Bob, when you say you have asked for this before - was that through the Support Case system or just posts on the forum or some sort of email correspondence?

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Re: Color Readout PROBLEMS!!!

Postby Bob Graham, Jr. » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:37 pm

(Grant)
I don't use the colour readouts a lot compared to some people but once in a while I spend several hours with the and how they work now seems quite logical to me.


(Bob)
This is because you do not use it the way I do.

(Grant)
Especially if one is trying to assess colour match or difference between two variants of the same image or very similar images within a set of images - which is how I would imagine the feature would be most likely to be useful and therefore be used.


(Bob)
I am not talking about using the same image or a variant of the image.

If you take 4 shots from different perspectives in the same room, you will get color variations in all of the 4 images.

Your assumption of how “mostly likely to be useful and therefore be used” is limiting and harmful to me. Just because you to not have the same needs that I have does not give you the right to say my needs are not valid.

(Grant)
Yes there are some limitations that require workarounds of you wish to try to check the response of colours to adjustments across images where the target check point is not at exactly the same pixel position, However I'm not really sure how one could 'fix' that without developing a much more complex an cumbersome approach.


(Bob)
I have spent well over $100,000.00 on programmers in my lifetime. To fix this problem they need to locate in the code where instructions to process and place Color Readouts onto image is made and at that point if the CONTROL KEY is held down then DO NOT PLACE Color Readout in the other images. I have told them about this and have NEVER gotten a response.

(Grant)
That's not to say I don't see your point although if you are only looking at the colour in one image at a time simply changing the Viewer mode to Single image rather than multiple might help you.


(Bob)
I select several Color Points in my images at the same time. Switching back and forth is not a good answer.

(Grant)
By the way Bob, when you say you have asked for this before - was that through the Support Case system or just posts on the forum or some sort of email correspondence?


(Bob)
Yes… I have placed several Support Cases over the years and have spoken to many of the people who could get my request in front of the Development Team.

Thank you Grant for your thoughts!
Bob
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Re: Color Readout PROBLEMS!!!

Postby SFA » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:30 am

Bob,

I understand what you want but realistically it's mile away from what the current function does.

I really doubt it's as simple as using the CTRL key (on the one hand) and I'm not sure I understand why it's such a problem for you (on the other hand). But obviously it is something that gets to you.

I would suggest there may be some other matters that would constrain your effective use of the functionality - on occasion I have had some myself in similar situations to those you describe. Yep, it can be somewhere between tricky and impossible to get a direct comparison but without designing a completely new alternative approach I cannot see a simple solution.

I appreciate very well that what you want to do is probably not what the original feature was intended to deliver. Which is what I was saying. I don't think the developers are trying to be limiting to you or harmful to you - they just have not had enough current demand from users seeking the same sort of functionality to be able to schedule such a development ahead of other more requested or needed features would be my guess. Or perhaps it's just not an area of functionality for which it might seem likely to compete usefully with the existing 'go-to' products?

Maybe I misinterpreted what you were sating about only wanting to see the colour points on one image at a time. I wondered if you meant to position the point for a single comparison at different pixel positions on different images but couldn't quite get your original description to read quite that way. However if that is what you want then that is exactly why I suggested it would need to be a completely new development in terms of C1 design.

In a pixel editor application with a "canvas" concept - Photoshop, Affinity and others - the images could be placed on the canvas and the pin (or a set of connected pins) could be positioned on the image BUT related to the canvas pixel position (just by way of an example).

C1 does not have a "canvas" to work with which, I would guess, makes it a non-trivial development exercise and fairly significant design concept change.

I guess you have not found the the Normalize function effective for your needs? I don't know whether I would expect it to work for your requirements. It may be too general as a 'look' concept.

Thanks for your discussion points.


Grant
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Re: Color Readout PROBLEMS!!!

Postby Bob Graham, Jr. » Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:09 am

(Grant)
I understand what you want but realistically it's mile away from what the current function does.


It is not miles away from what the current function does.

The current function places a Color Readout point on an image. When it does this, at the same time it places points on all the other selected images. All I want is the function to place one point at a time.

(Grant)
I really doubt it's as simple as using the CTRL key (on the one hand) and I'm not sure I understand why it's such a problem for you (on the other hand). But obviously it is something that gets to you.


Are you a programmer Grant? There are several functions in Capture One that act differently when you hold down a key. This ability is not new, and it is not complicated.

It should be an easy fix. If it is not, I would like to hear it from the Developers why they can not fix it. I own an IQ3 100 and it was not cheap. I would like to do my color corrections by the numbers on my RAW files. Since I do Architectural Photography, there are many times I need to select color points in many images at the same time. Currently I use Photoshop to do this.

It gets to me because I am tired of using Photoshop to finish off what I should be able to do inside Capture One. At the last webinar David said that Capture One has replaced Lightroom. The current use for a Color Readout point puts the cart before the horse.

(Grant)
I would suggest there may be some other matters that would constrain your effective use of the functionality - on occasion I have had some myself in similar situations to those you describe. Yep, it can be somewhere between tricky and impossible to get a direct comparison but without designing a completely new alternative approach I cannot see a simple solution.


What other matters are you talking about that would constrain my effective use of the functionality? I am only asking for them to make the Color Readout point place one point at a time. Let’s keep this clear and simple.

I am not asking you to see something you cannot see. I need the Developers to check out this issue. Or am I missing something? Do you control what the Developers look at?


(Grant)
I appreciate very well that what you want to do is probably not what the original feature was intended to deliver.


The original feature was intended to deliver Color Readout points. Typically, when you start out developing a function you start out in small steps. I am sure they developed the ability to place one point on one image before they developed what they have now.

Having the functionally to place one Color Readout point at a time would make a lot more sense to start out with than what they have now.

How is creating a Color Readout point that places Color Readout points all over the place without having the ability of placing one Color Readout point at a time even logical.

(Grant)
Which is what I was saying. I don't think the developers are trying to be limiting to you or harmful to you - they just have not had enough current demand from users seeking the same sort of functionality to be able to schedule such a development ahead of other more requested or needed features would be my guess. Or perhaps it's just not an area of functionality for which it might seem likely to compete usefully with the existing 'go-to' products?


Since I have not heard from the Development Team I do not even know if my request has ever gotten to them.

(Grant)
Maybe I misinterpreted what you were sating about only wanting to see the colour points on one image at a time. I wondered if you meant to position the point for a single comparison at different pixel positions on different images but couldn't quite get your original description to read quite that way. However if that is what you want then that is exactly why I suggested it would need to be a completely new development in terms of C1 design.


You are almost close to understanding the problem.

Please read this twice. When you place a Color Readout point on an image and you have selected several other different images; the different images get Color Readout point place in those images. After about 3 or 4 Color Readout points being place in different images you have about 30+ Color Readout points in all your images. Do you honestly not see the problem? What’s the original functionality supposed to be?

(Grant)
In a pixel editor application with a "canvas" concept - Photoshop, Affinity and others - the images could be placed on the canvas and the pin (or a set of connected pins) could be positioned on the image BUT related to the canvas pixel position (just by way of an example).


Am I missing something… When I place a Color Readout point on an image, am I not seeing the true color information? What does your point have to do with the Color Readout?

(Grant)
C1 does not have a "canvas" to work with which, I would guess, makes it a non-trivial development exercise and fairly significant design concept change.


What does this have to do with making a Color Readout point placement.

(Grant)
I guess you have not found the the Normalize function effective for your needs? I don't know whether I would expect it to work for your requirements. It may be too general as a 'look' concept.


The Normalize Function is a nice tool but it will replace doing color correction by the numbers.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Bob
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Re: Color Readout PROBLEMS!!!

Postby SFA » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:21 am

Bob,

Yes I am well aware of additional function keys modify behaviour - but that is not what this is about. In my opinion.

The colour pin placement is relative to an image dimension likely measured from a corner point. It will provide the coordinates for a spatial reference point for a pixel (or small group of pixels most likely) relative to the dimensions of the image being displayed.

Readout placement is based on a relative position in the original file, ignoring any crop and there is some interpretation going on if the original files are different sizes (say a RAW file and an Out of Camera jpg.) SOme accpount is taken of reported orientation as well.

This is done on an image by image basis as you know. All references are to a single image and are then presented as a form of overlay. If multiple images are selected the same overlay is applied to all of them and they are allocated some screen space divided into whatever size is required according to screen size and number of images that can be fitted onto it. A maximum of 9 image can be displayed, as I recall. You can use instruction modifier key to co-ordinate zooming all images and moving around images when they are zoomed. As I am sure you will know.

To change the behaviour of the program would require that the screen area (or a virtual screen area such as canvas concept) rather than an image area, would be necessary and the color pins would need to be recorded according to points on the canvas to give provide individual control. The images would need to be positioned as suitable points on the canvas - so a different means of managing the coordinates would be required for both the pin point AND the position of the images relative to some reference points on the canvas.

To me that sounds like a start again development in preference to attempting modification and once you have the canvas concept you then have Photoshop type functionality as the basis of how you manage the screens and that either sets the colour pin processing off into a rather different GUI approach that is likely to separate it from the way everything else works OR means the application is split up into "modules" or Modes" of operation (Affinity refers to "Personas") where you first develop you RAW file and create another working file - like a PSD file or something rather application specific because it's not an attractive proposition to just create another Photoshop lookalike - and then you undertake the rest of your editing work on this new "workfile" which has your RAW conversion baked in.

In C1 terms it would be like converting the RAW, exporting, say, a TIFF file and then doing all other editing on the TIFF file rather than using the RAW as the base data.

Now there may be another way that would not require separation of RAW conversion and all subsequent editing activity but I really doubt it would be as trivial as introducing an instruction key change that can be modified to a slightly different purpose by use of an additional (and presumably user programmable) key combination. More likely it would require completely re-writing large parts of the application.Perhaps all of it.

Setting that base user interface stuff to one side there is also the question of how appropriately totally independent pin positions can be placed well enough over a small area selection of pixels to be sure they are of any value for whatever comparison one needs to do.

The current approach may well be imperfect but at least it offers some semblance of co-ordination much of the time.

Random pin placement would not even give the comfort of knowing that the points one wishes to compare and assess come from what might be the same part of an image. You are likely looking for a very small spot of pixels to compare. Miss the target slightly and what ever you do get might a completely different selection for each image without any point of reference at all to link the samples - which will at least have some points of commonality in many use cases as things stand.

Thus to provide a properly useful tool for your needs seems to me to require more consideration than adding a function key modifier when setting a pin position would provide. . If one IS going to undertake useful but complex development one might as well be sure to make it properly useful.

Grant
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Re: Color Readout PROBLEMS!!!

Postby tenmangu81 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:09 pm

Hi Grant,

I am not sure you understood the issue. I have placed two screenshots in this Dropbox link:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/itysifosmqza ... 6Eifa?dl=0

In screenshot 1, I have selected a picture and made some colour readouts. The toggle between edit primary and edit selected variants is not checked in (i.e. it is not "orange"). And only one image has been selected.

Then I switch to a completely different second image : in screenshot 2, you can see that colour readouts at the same positions have been applied, which is completely non relevant. It could have been relevant if it were two variants of the same image (with, for instance, two different white balances or two different input profiles). But it is not the case. It shouldn't be very difficult for developpers to make a difference between two variants of the same images and two different images. And to ignore colour readouts on an image when you go an other one.

But maybe I miss something ?

Robert
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Re: Color Readout PROBLEMS!!!

Postby SFA » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:42 pm

tenmangu81 wrote:Hi Grant,

I am not sure you understood the issue. I have placed two screenshots in this Dropbox link:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/itysifosmqza ... 6Eifa?dl=0

In screenshot 1, I have selected a picture and made some colour readouts. The toggle between edit primary and edit selected variants is not checked in (i.e. it is not "orange"). And only one image has been selected.

Then I switch to a completely different second image : in screenshot 2, you can see that colour readouts at the same positions have been applied, which is completely non relevant. It could have been relevant if it were two variants of the same image (with, for instance, two different white balances or two different input profiles). But it is not the case. It shouldn't be very difficult for developpers to make a difference between two variants of the same images and two different images. And to erase colour readouts of an image when you go an other one.

But maybe I miss something ?

Robert


Robert,

Believe me I do understand the requirement and have on many occasions ended up working with several images covered with colour readouts attempting to pick the exact same point (a challenge in itself if one feels that absolute precision is absolutely necessary) in different images in order to understand whether there are a colour balance differences between the shots and if there are, to identify what sort of adjustments might be needed to re-balance them. It's very possible to get sucked in to something that one might be better to avoid through some other approach - but that's a different discussion.

Basically the current functionality is an overlay display for the screen not a map for a specific image. Something like the concept for watermarks. The image is taken into account (dimensions, rotation, etc.) when choosing where to place the pins bit that is as far as things go with the current approach.

To make it a map for a specific image the positional information would most likely need to be stored in the edit file (or another sidecar file something like the way layer masks are stored).

Now that may indeed be possible should there be enough support for the functionality. After all, anything is possible. But it would mean more than just deploying an extra keyboard based key function modifier.

At the moment the overlay simply works at screen level reading the values at the coordinate point as modifies in real time by changes, etc. If you have multiple sessions or catalogues open you will see the colour readouts in all of them as you move through them.

Whether this is a good thing or a hopeless application design somewhat depends on what one is trying to do and how one is trying to do it.

Bob's main issue seems to be that he cannot have two separate pins on separate images in different positions (that can be seen to be related to each other in order to make them useful). At the moment 2 pins would be required for that simple example and so there would be some unnecessary clutter (from Bob's POV) and it is still not easy to identify at a glance which pins are the ones you wish to compare and which are the redundant pins you would rather not have but which are necessary for the purpose using the currently available approach.

Whether you are looking at the images one at a time or with multiple images displayed in the Viewer does not make any difference to the principles here.

I'm pretty sure that if this was a couple of days work for development and testing it would have been done. I suspect it would take a lot more investment than that to come up with a re-design that would be useful for future development (no point doing it if it is just a dead end one off that cannot be adapted to the next enhancement request that would surely arise soon after it is introduced) when the majority of customers are probably already committed to a workflow that includes other products for this purpose and are unlikely to change that flow.(For any number of individual reasons that one could think of based on forum comments around the internet!)

Does that help to explain where I am coming from? And why I suspect that this would not ba a trivial change to make for not much functionality gain (for most users) even though it would obviously mean a lot to Bob.


Grant
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Re: Color Readout PROBLEMS!!!

Postby Bob Graham, Jr. » Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:03 pm

Hi Grant,

Thank you so much for your latest post. I get it now… the watermark analogy explains why the functionality that I need would require a lot of work. The Color Readout tool is not a real Color Readout tool.

Having said that, I am planning on developing a Color Readout Capture One Support Group campaign.

I will start by creating videos and posting them all over the internet:
1. About what the current Color Readout is really doing.
2. Why managing colors by the numbers on a RAW file provides the best results.
3. The inherent problems to manage colors in Capture One
4. Why everyone should contact Phase One to create an effective Color Readout tool.

It is my hope that my efforts will help Capture One users and when they see the power of color management by the numbers on a raw file, we can start a dialogue towards creating a tool that will work the way it should.

(Grant)
Does that help to explain where I am coming from? And why I suspect that this would not ba a trivial change to make for not much functionality gain (for most users) even though it would obviously mean a lot to Bob.

Grant… you have helped clear-up the issue. I need to get others on my side before you will do anything. I had hoped that you would see the value of managing colors by the numbers.

Anyone one who knows me, knows I do not give up. Creating an effective Color Readout tools is the right thing to do.

Grant, thank you for explaining the current issues with the Color Readout tool. I would like to thank everyone that posted to this question. Your support was needed!

Bob
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Re: Color Readout PROBLEMS!!!

Postby tenmangu81 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:38 pm

SFA wrote:
Basically the current functionality is an overlay display for the screen not a map for a specific image. Something like the concept for watermarks. The image is taken into account (dimensions, rotation, etc.) when choosing where to place the pins bit that is as far as things go with the current approach.

To make it a map for a specific image the positional information would most likely need to be stored in the edit file (or another sidecar file something like the way layer masks are stored).

Now that may indeed be possible should there be enough support for the functionality. After all, anything is possible. But it would mean more than just deploying an extra keyboard based key function modifier.

At the moment the overlay simply works at screen level reading the values at the coordinate point as modifies in real time by changes, etc. If you have multiple sessions or catalogues open you will see the colour readouts in all of them as you move through them.



Thanks Grant. Now I understand what you mean : the coordinate system and, hence, the readout positions are based on the screen, not on the image itself.
Bob, I think your idea about creating and posting videos could help many users, and maybe would suggest the Phase One team to consider more deeply the functionality.
Who knows ?
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Re: Color Readout PROBLEMS!!!

Postby Bob Graham, Jr. » Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:09 pm

Hi tenmangu81,

Thank you so much for your support!

Bob
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Re: Color Readout PROBLEMS!!!

Postby SFA » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:02 pm

Bob,

I can to some degree understand your need to manager colours by numbers but I suspect you are in something of a minority within the user base for the mass market C1 product.

For example there are times when I have felt a need to manage by colour values for various reasons BUT, in the main, for my purposes it is not really necessary - close enough will do and artistic interpretation seems to be popular amongst the prospective audience for the output.

The obvious exception would be the fashion industry and anyone in product photography. Not a small group of course but a group with a Photoshop habit (usually) as part of their production methodology. However even there I suspect the "mass market" is less concerned with totally accurate colour management than it is with high speed production and use of the images.

When I see, for example, clothing catalogues even from mid-range retailers heading towards the upper price ranges, the way the items are presented often suggests that showing off the product to the best it has to offer is low on the list of objectives. I doubt colour accuracy is as important to them as it once might have been. Perhaps internet standards are coming to prevail.

I don't know for certain but I suspect that your particular objective for colour by numbers is something that might be of importance (and therefore close to the hearts) of the C1 Cultural Heritage team. Perhaps you have contact with them already?

I may well be wrong but I would assume that for architectural purposes and images that may well have various light sources and therefore colour temperatures to work with there will be some level of importance attached to reasonable accuracy of colour but perhaps more significant might be the consistency of colour for different shots taken at different times and with different lighting influencers - whether they be natural vs artificial light or perhaps even reflections from the surfaces in the image.

In theory the colour temperature is a sort of WB thing as the basis for getting it consistent but the final colour matching may be something closer to a normalise types of operation. Somewhere in the mix might be LCC profiles.

That observed I would say that is probably not so difficult to understand the generic type of editing you are likely to be undertaking but getting to an understanding of the details that are important to your workflow and understand exactly why you do what you do would be more challenging and less likely to be satisfied by a prescriptive suggestion.

I seem to recall some articles from years ago about architecture shots including working in styled rooms - it may be time for me to revisit them.

I'll look forward to learning more from your proposed campaign materials!


Grant
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