Time to revisit support of other medium format cameras

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Time to revisit support of other medium format cameras

Postby Vidio » Sun May 20, 2018 4:09 pm

After years of using Capture One I find that I must abandon it because I've added an X1D into my collection of cameras. I realize they have a policy to not support competitors of Phase One but I think the time has come for them to re-evaluate this.

First is the fact that Capture One is a PAID product for those of us who do not own P1. Compare this to Phocus, Hasselblads RAW software. Phocus is free to all and it supports all formats and cameras. It does not have complete support for all the brands but at least it lets you open the files and do some basic adjustments. And the software is FREE. C1 charges you for their software and then intentionally cripples it so you can't even open the X1D files.

Second, the word is changing and we're going to see many new cameras with sensors larger than FF. C1 is going to have to arbitrarily decide which ones to exclude and which ones to accept. This seems short sighted. If you want to dominate the hardware market release a product that is so appealing that people will want it and can afford it. Don't try and bully people by not supporting some brands you feel threatened by.

Finally i am really sad to leave C1 because I like the interface and quality of the resultant files. But I need a catalog that can have all my files in it. When I shoot I might bring Leica, Nikon and Hassy and combine photos from each for the final deliverables. I don't want to have separate catalogs for the different types.

I realize P1 is a small company and C1 even smaller but maybe it is time for the owners to revisit their support strategy. Maybe C1 contributes very little to the overall financial success of the company and so they can afford to loose customers. But if that is the case all of us users should be worried because if C1 doesn't matter too much to them then its continued support and success are in doubt.
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Re: Time to revisit support of other medium format cameras

Postby C-M-B » Sun May 20, 2018 9:32 pm

I don't think Phocus supports PhaseOne files, or do they?
Even if they do, a lot of the features simply don't work with images that were not taken with a Hasselblad:

Local adjustments, noise reduction, dust correction, lens correction, highlights and shadows, clarity - I've read in a review in late december that those things are only available for Hasselblad files.

There's a reason why nobody uses Phocus except for people who use a Hasselblad... Phocus simply isn't as advanced as C1 or Lightroom. Even some of the people who use Phocus mostly use it for tethering and then switch to LR for editing their images.

So to summarize:
Capture One is for free if you own a Phase One camera - and if you buy it you'll get all its features for your camera (unless it's a medium format camera from another brand).
Phocus is for free but even if your camera is supported a lot of the features are not enabled unless you use a Hasselblad camera.

So basically Phocus is crippled for everyone - except their own cameras.


ps.: From what I've been able to gather it seems like under Windows you can't open any file types in Phocus except for Hasselblad files. This only works very rudimentary for some files in OSX because Phocus works with the OSX libraries and can thus edit simple parameters.
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Re: Time to revisit support of other medium format cameras

Postby ShaneB » Mon May 21, 2018 1:24 am

Vidio wrote:I realize P1 is a small company and C1 even smaller but maybe it is time for the owners to revisit their support strategy. Maybe C1 contributes very little to the overall financial success of the company and so they can afford to loose customers. But if that is the case all of us users should be worried because if C1 doesn't matter too much to them then its continued support and success are in doubt.


I think you make a valid point.
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Re: Time to revisit support of other medium format cameras

Postby Vidio » Mon May 21, 2018 5:28 am

To CMB - I was not trying to say that Phocus is a better program. Quite the contrary. I would love to use C1 but now can't.
I'm only pointing out that Hasselblad does not prohibit the use of other medium format files like C1 does. C1 literally blocks any file with the word Hasselblad in the exif data. Why not let us open the file and use the generic RAW profile. When C1 was understandably slow to support various Leica cameras one always had the option to open with generic profiling and proceed at your own risk. But that option has specifically been outlawed by code that looks for the word "Hasselblad" (and presumably other medium format as well) and blocks you from opening it.

And I know that it has always been the policy and I was forewarned, etc. I know that people will say I should have thought about it before buying Hassy. I was aware of what would happen. I'm just suggesting to P1 that maybe they should re-evaluate their policy in light of the the growing number of semi medium format sensors and cameras coming out. What happens when Nikon or Canon or Sony release theirs? Will they block it? What will that do to all the Nikon and Canon users that not can't mix their FF with the MF cameras?
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Re: Time to revisit support of other medium format cameras

Postby C-M-B » Mon May 21, 2018 10:42 am

Well if you're a Windows user, Phocus DOES block the use of filesfrom ANY other company, including Phase One.

:roll:

It only works partially with some files in a Mac OSX environment because it allows you to edit basic settings using the info from the OSX libraries.

Here's the thing: why should PhaseOne "help" rival companies by giving them access to their own software? Did Hasselblad help with the development? Did Leica pay for the creation of their colour management architecture?

If Phase One decided to open their own software to Leica or Hasselblad or Pentax medium format files, they would improve the products from those firms. Hasselblad wouldn't have to work on their own Phocus any more, Pentax would not even think about having to create a useful software and Leica...well, let's not talk to much about Leica and their medium format stuff.

Do you see the issue? Personally I'd love to work with a Pentax 645Z for landscape photography in Capture One but it's not supported and I understand why.
Nikon, Canon or Sony are all not in the MF market, just like PhaseOne is not in the small format market. If Nikon, Canon or Sony created a medium format line it would be extremely expensive (simply because they would have to create everything from the bottom up - including lens design! - and they would have to price it low enough so that peolpe would actually buy them which would be very, very, very difficult) and most likely very few people would/could actually buy it. And those that could buy it already have a Hasselblad, PhaseOne or Pentax. Or a Leica if their Ego demands it.
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Re: Time to revisit support of other medium format cameras

Postby Vidio » Mon May 21, 2018 4:14 pm

Well I guess it boils down to what the purpose of C1 is. Is it meant to be an all around RAW developer like Lightroom or a program to promote P1 hardware? I was hoping for the former but I guess its a bit of both. I think C1 is superior to Lightroom and every other program out there EXCEPT for the ban on medium format and it seems to me that ultimately will be a limiting factor to the continued growth and development of C1, especially if medium format becomes much more popular as I think it will. But maybe I'm wrong and MF will remain a niche. But wow - with a 100MP Sony sensor out there it seems mighty tempting.
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Re: Time to revisit support of other medium format cameras

Postby Vidio » Mon May 21, 2018 11:13 pm

One other thought. I wonder what the C1 team could accomplish if C1 was bought out and untethered from P1. And maybe investors would infuse a bit of cash into the development team. The C1 team already accomplishes so much more with what I can only guess is a fraction of the size of the team Lightroom has. Imagine if they could operate as a separate entity and really become a major competitor to Lightroom.
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Re: Time to revisit support of other medium format cameras

Postby SFA » Tue May 22, 2018 12:25 am

Vidio wrote:One other thought. I wonder what the C1 team could accomplish if C1 was bought out and untethered from P1. And maybe investors would infuse a bit of cash into the development team. The C1 team already accomplishes so much more with what I can only guess is a fraction of the size of the team Lightroom has. Imagine if they could operate as a separate entity and really become a major competitor to Lightroom.



I think you probably underestimate the benefits of scale that a corporation the size of Adobe can apply, though at some point such scale can become problematic too if Management are not adept at spotting strengths, weaknesses and opportunities.

I see they are buying a major e-commerce vendor with, reportedly, 300,000 developers.

If you want to compete directly with Adobe in a significant section of Adobe's arts and graphics marketplace (just one of many areas in which they operate) you would need to become something like an "Affinity" type of developer.. Like Adobe they have been in that area of the market for some time.

Neither of them design and make cameras.


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Re: Time to revisit support of other medium format cameras

Postby C-M-B » Tue May 22, 2018 1:52 am

Look, here's the thing:

If Capture One supported Pentax 645Z files it would improve the useage and viability of Pentax 645Z cameras by a lot! Same goes for Hasselblad files and Fuji files. Sure PhaseOne could sell a few thousand more licenses but the rival companies would gain much more market share and functionality and they wouldn't have do spend any money on that.
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Re: Time to revisit support of other medium format cameras

Postby SFA » Tue May 22, 2018 10:46 am

C-M-B wrote:Look, here's the thing:

If Capture One supported Pentax 645Z files it would improve the useage and viability of Pentax 645Z cameras by a lot! Same goes for Hasselblad files and Fuji files. Sure PhaseOne could sell a few thousand more licenses but the rival companies would gain much more market share and functionality and they wouldn't have do spend any money on that.


There is also the question of whether the other companies would agree to exposing their technology to a third party - especially a third party that competes directly with them but would, if working with all of the manufacturers, have access to all of their information and it might be a little difficult to agree any sort of development contract on that basis.

I can't see an obvious commercial benefit for Phase by supporting the wider MF camera base.

Let's face it - if people have made an investment into any level of MF with bodies, backs and lenses plus all of the peripheral requirements w/r memory cards, storage capacity for large files, batteries and so on, it's hardly going to break anyone's budget to use two or more RAW converters side by side is it?

For most people - especially in the Pro market - that seems to be pretty much normal anyway. No matter if you use other converters, Photoshop seems to be a standard requirement somewhere and the current Adobe deals seem all to be bundles that include LR.


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Re: Time to revisit support of other medium format cameras

Postby Vidio » Tue May 22, 2018 3:25 pm

Just came across this article which I think reflects my feelings pretty closely:
https://photographylife.com/why-capture ... -lightroom
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Re: Time to revisit support of other medium format cameras

Postby Vidio » Tue May 22, 2018 4:48 pm

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Re: Time to revisit support of other medium format cameras

Postby VAD. » Fri May 25, 2018 5:54 pm

C-M-B wrote:Look, here's the thing:

If Capture One supported Pentax 645Z files it would improve the useage and viability of Pentax 645Z cameras by a lot! Same goes for Hasselblad files and Fuji files. Sure PhaseOne could sell a few thousand more licenses but the rival companies would gain much more market share and functionality and they wouldn't have do spend any money on that.


This is undeniable fact
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Re: Time to revisit support of other medium format cameras

Postby Jamestarrao » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:17 pm

Vidio wrote:Just came across this article which I think reflects my feelings pretty closely:
https://photographylife.com/why-capture ... -lightroom & camera


Hey Vidio,

I think you are right but the Capture One 11 has also a same problem.
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Re: Time to revisit support of other medium format cameras

Postby NNN635527904509697615 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:01 am

Here is the thing, I see it like a breach of contract when my capture one 8 supported Pentax 645z and then suddenly no longer did... If this change had happened at Capture One version 9 i would be fine with it but that was wrong of them to do and if I remember well my refund was denied. So that was unfair.

I believe the money for capture one is in Software development and market place (styles and third party add-on market places like wordpress, steam etc). Expensive cameras are like expensive cars, they are beautiful and cost alot but margin and market size is too low. If C1 wants to make more money they should just offer the same thing at a slightly lower price and prepare for waves of customers coming in.

Finally you might have seen that Fuji's medium format is being supported...
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