C1P 11.1 Normalize tool WAY off...

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C1P 11.1 Normalize tool WAY off...

Postby NNN634849709972812736 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:14 pm

I accidentally posted this in the Mac section originally...

Well either I am doing something completely wrong or the new Normalize tool in the Windows version of Capture One Pro 11.1 is not working. As I understand it you Pick a color (N) then go to another image and apply the color. I am getting wildly different results when I do this. In general at least 1 - 2 stops of exposure are added and the color readout, while a similar color, isn't really close at all. Is there a bug? Are others experiencing this?

As an example I have two solid green images that are different only in tonal value and less than a third of a stop. If I pick one and then apply it to the other, not only doesn't it correct the color cast properly, it makes the corrected image dramatically brighter than the one I picked the color from.
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Re: C1P 11.1 Normalize tool WAY off...

Postby C-M-B » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:54 pm

I found that there's a certain level of trial and error until you get the hang of it.

Remember that you don't have to apply both colour and exposure if the image doesn't require it. However if you want to normalize both you have to be mindful of the differences between the images when it comes to light and shadows and details within the area you wish to normalize.

For instance if your images have a lot of noise it can influence the outcome - when you pick one of the darker pixels from a rather noisy patch and try to apply its values to a brighter pixel from the same patch in another image it will not be as even.

So if you have a person with freckles you won't get an even result if you pick the values from a freckle and apply the values to an area without freckles. Same goes for blemishes or wrinkles.

If you want a precise result you'll have to be very precise with the tool as it is really pixel-precise.
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Re: C1P 11.1 Normalize tool WAY off...

Postby NNN634849709972812736 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:02 am

Thanks for the reply, I tried the various combinations and these are ISO 100 images so I don't think it's noise, besides, the color that the tool is recording, which is accessible by clicking the three little dots is correct but then when it applies it, it is almost always massively overexposed. This is on just a plain green completely out of focus background where I am trying to exactly match the green...
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Re: C1P 11.1 Normalize tool WAY off...

Postby C-M-B » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:55 am

Is the background 100% even without any differences in brightness overall? Or is there a gradation?

I'm pretty sure you won't have a problem getting the colour matched but if there are imperfections in the background like a graduation you probably won't be able to get the same brightness unless you target the exact same spot in the other image.

Maybe you should share the images you're working on.
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Re: C1P 11.1 Normalize tool WAY off...

Postby NNN634849709972812736 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:46 pm

As I said, the tool gives you the exact color values so I can be sure that I am not picking the wrong spot.

It is very simple, a photograph of a green screen and then a subject against that same green screen. There is a slight difference in tonality in the green between the two. If I sample the green on one image and apply it to the other, the result is brightened by about 2 stops and the two greens aren't even in the same universe.
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Re: C1P 11.1 Normalize tool WAY off...

Postby C-M-B » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:45 pm

So you're only normalizing the tonal value and not the exposure?

And the greenscreen is 100% perfectly evenly lit across the image?

As I mentioned before is there is a gradient (like a light falloff or vignetting from the lens or whatever) it will also try to adjust for that when you normalize the exposure. That's why it's so important to pick the exact same area of the image you want to normalize.

If the background is not 100% evenly lit the normalize tool most likely won't get you the exposure that you want.
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Re: C1P 11.1 Normalize tool WAY off...

Postby SFA » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:34 pm

Be sure that both images have the same base edits applied before normalising.

In early beta testing I saw what seemed to be wildly random results but after working out what the intentions is (I think) and the point of it is to be finessing images which are quite close to being the same and so checking prior editing and choosing colour selection points more carefully my later results became more consistent.

In the end I could only induce wild results if try to normalise an image that looked somewhat the same in terms of colours but had reached that point from a very different starting point or a significantly different set of changes via edit.

I have just installed the release for 11.1 so I hope to re-visit to check for any differences between it and the final beta release in the next day or so.

I suspect that this feature, rather more prominent than the Skin Tone tool used to be, may be worthy of being the basis of an entire new Webinar discussing its use alongside the colour editor and the other related tools. Mainly to avoid any misconception anyone may have about it's intended usage and clarify its limitations.

I was going to check the Help file but it seems that is not possible just at the moment.

Grant

ETA.

Ah, well I discovered it is possible to get to the Help via the main Phase One web site and there is a full description in the Help for the Normalise tool and how it is intended to be used which mostly confirms my comments above and greatly extends upon them.

So I guess that should be the basis against which we decide whether or not there are anomalies to report as Support Cases.

Grant
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Re: C1P 11.1 Normalize tool WAY off...

Postby NNN634849709972812736 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:19 pm

I think Grant hits the nail on the head and where I was misunderstanding the tool. I was under the impression from some of the stuff out there on this tool that I could take any photo, pick a sample and then apply it to another photo and it would change that point on the target photo to the same color value and then adjust all the others in the photo in accordance. There's at least one so called "tutorial" out there that claims that. But after what Grant wrote I now understand the intention of the tool much better. Thanks!
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Re: C1P 11.1 Normalize tool WAY off...

Postby Irvin » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:17 pm

I’m a bit confused.

What’s the best use / goal of the normalize tool? Any before/after examples?
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Re: C1P 11.1 Normalize tool WAY off...

Postby SFA » Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:31 pm

Irvin wrote:I’m a bit confused.

What’s the best use / goal of the normalize tool? Any before/after examples?


If you have not already read the Help section for the tool I would recommend that it is a good idea as a primer.

Maybe read it more than once, section by section for a quite full appreciation of the objectives. I spent several hours trying to work out the practical boundaries for what the tool is intended to do in the absence of any detailed guidance for that in the beta period. Now I have read the help it nearly all makes sense - but there is quite a lot to take in for a full understanding (maybe not for anyone who used the previous Skin Tone iteration heavily - they will probably get it more easily).
I'm now wondering if there might be some interesting, though perhaps extreme, results possible from ignoring the recommended limitations!

Actually I already know there are but I'm not sure they are controllable! :wink:


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Re: C1P 11.1 Normalize tool WAY off...

Postby Irvin.Gomez » Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:04 pm

SFA wrote:
Irvin wrote:I’m a bit confused.

What’s the best use / goal of the normalize tool? Any before/after examples?


I spent several hours trying to work out the practical boundaries for what the tool is intended to do in the absence of any detailed guidance for that in the beta period. Now I have read the help it nearly all makes sense - but there is quite a lot to take in for a full understanding (maybe not for anyone who used the previous Skin Tone iteration heavily - they will probably get it more easily).
I'm now wondering if there might be some interesting, though perhaps extreme, results possible from ignoring the recommended limitations!

Actually I already know there are but I'm not sure they are controllable! :wink:


Perhaps someone with a better understanding will chime in. Thanks!
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Re: C1P 11.1 Normalize tool WAY off...

Postby SFA » Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:48 pm

Irv00 wrote:
SFA wrote:
Irvin wrote:I’m a bit confused.

What’s the best use / goal of the normalize tool? Any before/after examples?


I spent several hours trying to work out the practical boundaries for what the tool is intended to do in the absence of any detailed guidance for that in the beta period. Now I have read the help it nearly all makes sense - but there is quite a lot to take in for a full understanding (maybe not for anyone who used the previous Skin Tone iteration heavily - they will probably get it more easily).
I'm now wondering if there might be some interesting, though perhaps extreme, results possible from ignoring the recommended limitations!

Actually I already know there are but I'm not sure they are controllable! :wink:


Perhaps someone with a better understanding will chime in. Thanks!


So you read the Help and did not understand it?


Grant
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Re: C1P 11.1 Normalize tool WAY off...

Postby Irvin.Gomez » Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:53 pm

SFA wrote:
Irv00 wrote:
Perhaps someone with a better understanding will chime in. Thanks!


So you read the Help and did not understand it?


Grant


I read it, although not for as many hours as you did - but it should not be *that* complicated.

Look at yourself: you still don't have a clear idea of it. I would expect that a regular user would not have to struggle so much. I would expect that the things written in this thread would not happen.

Perhaps someone with better knowledge than you and I could chime in. Perhaps a few examples, perhaps a different explanation, whatever.

Let's wait, ok?
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Re: C1P 11.1 Normalize tool WAY off...

Postby SFA » Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:59 pm

Irv00 wrote:
SFA wrote:
Irv00 wrote:
Perhaps someone with a better understanding will chime in. Thanks!


So you read the Help and did not understand it?


Grant


I read it, although not for as many hours as you did - but it should not be *that* complicated.

Look at yourself: you still don't have a clear idea of it. I would expect that a regular user would not have to struggle so much. I would expect that the things written in this thread would not happen.

Perhaps someone with better knowledge than you and I could chime in. Let's wait, ok?


I think you have read too much in to my attempt to explain.

I have never been a regular user of the Skin Tone functionality that preceded Normalize.

What I worked out was done without the Help text - it was not available.

I think if you read that you should understand. I doubt anyone could add much more.

If that does not work for you - best raise a support case and let the C1 team know - doing that may lead to something that also helps others with the same problem if the Supporters realise that that there are many users who have no idea about how to use the tool to best effect.


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Re: C1P 11.1 Normalize tool WAY off...

Postby Irvin.Gomez » Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:27 pm

SFA wrote:
SFA wrote:
Irv00 wrote:
So you read the Help and did not understand it?


Grant


I read it, although not for as many hours as you did - but it should not be *that* complicated.

Look at yourself: you still don't have a clear idea of it. I would expect that a regular user would not have to struggle so much. I would expect that the things written in this thread would not happen.

Perhaps someone with better knowledge than you and I could chime in. Let's wait, ok?


I think you have read too much in to my attempt to explain.

I have never been a regular user of the Skin Tone functionality that preceded Normalize.

What I worked out was done without the Help text - it was not available.

I think if you read that you should understand. I doubt anyone could add much more.

If that does not work for you - best raise a support case and let the C1 team know - doing that may lead to something that also helps others with the same problem if the Supporters realise that that there are many users who have no idea about how to use the tool to best effect.


Grant


Relax. Let other people chime in. You tried, but you don't know much about it. I appreciate your effort and thanked you for it.

No need to "raise a support case". Relax - nobody is attacking Capture One and you don't need to adopt the role of guardian dog at the door. Relax, man.
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