Capture One 12.0 wish list....?

Discussions, questions, comments and suggestions regarding Capture One PRO, Capture One PRO(For Sony), Capture One DB and Capture One Express(For Sony) 11.x for Mac

Re: Capture One 12.0 wish list....?

Postby Thomas Achermann » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:19 pm

SFA wrote:
NNN634523208431475184 wrote:Keywording is a trainwreck.


Would you care to describe how so?


- applying KWs to a larger amount of images takes ages
- no way to set KWs as placeholders in a hierarchy (the "do not export" setting in LR)
- no way to create synonyms (that is an important thing)
- disconnect between "Catalog KWs" and "KW Libraries": I have created several libraries with the idea of having the same libraries for all my catalogs. If you try to correct a simple spelling error in an existing KW (or change the position of a KW in a hierarchy) you will totally break the whole system of a shared KW library because that changed KW is no longer assigned to the image but instead you will find the old KW still being assigned but in "Catalog KWs". It is supposed to be a database - and in no DB does a record vanish when you change the value of a field. But in CO changing the name of a KW actually creates another, new record (or at least removes it from previously assigned images).
- Interface glich: if you have a hierarchy and want to add a new keyword, you select "create child keyword" on the parent KW. Then you have to scroll all the way down to the end of that list in order to write the new keywords name. Then you hit enter and have to scroll back up in the list to find the KW you just created.
- no way to add KWs during import


I have written several support cases (CO9, CO10) about how KWs work in CO and how they should work but there has been no changes in this regard in CO10 or CO11.

CO is not LR (and does not have to be), but keywording in LR1 was way ahead of even CO11.
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Re: Capture One 12.0 wish list....?

Postby SFA » Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:58 pm

Thomas Achermann wrote:
SFA wrote:
NNN634523208431475184 wrote:Keywording is a trainwreck.


Would you care to describe how so?


- applying KWs to a larger amount of images takes ages
- no way to set KWs as placeholders in a hierarchy (the "do not export" setting in LR)
- no way to create synonyms (that is an important thing)
- disconnect between "Catalog KWs" and "KW Libraries": I have created several libraries with the idea of having the same libraries for all my catalogs. If you try to correct a simple spelling error in an existing KW (or change the position of a KW in a hierarchy) you will totally break the whole system of a shared KW library because that changed KW is no longer assigned to the image but instead you will find the old KW still being assigned but in "Catalog KWs". It is supposed to be a database - and in no DB does a record vanish when you change the value of a field. But in CO changing the name of a KW actually creates another, new record (or at least removes it from previously assigned images).
- Interface glich: if you have a hierarchy and want to add a new keyword, you select "create child keyword" on the parent KW. Then you have to scroll all the way down to the end of that list in order to write the new keywords name. Then you hit enter and have to scroll back up in the list to find the KW you just created.
- no way to add KWs during import


I have written several support cases (CO9, CO10) about how KWs work in CO and how they should work but there has been no changes in this regard in CO10 or CO11.

CO is not LR (and does not have to be), but keywording in LR1 was way ahead of even CO11.


An interesting list and something to look into.

My use of keywords may be simpler than yours in many ways. My most difficult problems are really born of the data when shooting events where hierarchies might be ideal except for frequent conflicts in the data requirements for the hierarchy. But I can use my future attempts to re-work the options I have considered as an opportunity to look at your problem list in detail. Just for a challenge.

When you wrote

"applying KWs to a larger amount of images takes ages"

are you thinking of the time required to select the images and assign the keywords or just that once you commit to the (batch?) update it takes a long time?


And for

"no way to add KWs during import"

There is - you can use a style for example for a generic set of keywords to be shared by all images - but that may not be what you are thinking of. In any case I find it as quick to apply generic KWs that apply to all or most images after import.

One possible difference may be that you mention Catalogs and I use Sessions.

I think even if I were to change over to a catalog for a DAM solution I would still be likely to import and process in a session for the compactness and convenience. Once that initial processing seemed to be complete taking that work into the catalog should be quite quick. Maybe someone else who already uses the Session to catalog workflow would care to comment on that.


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Re: Capture One 12.0 wish list....?

Postby MikeArst » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:12 pm

Re: "- applying KWs to a larger amount of images takes ages"

If I need to assign a bunch of keywords at a time I'd rather use Photo Mechanic for it. I just don't want to spend the time on it in Capture One, especially after finding that I can't assign multiple keywords to more than one file at a time. Kind of a baffling design for the feature. I encountered a Photo Mechanic-to-Capture-One keyword problem, though. I had Capture One set to auto-synch (all the time). I appended a single additional keyword to an image within Photo Mechanic. But the keyword I added in Photo Mechanic disappeared in Capture One. Previously added keywords were intact, but the new one was always removed. Capture One was actually removing the new keyword from the file, repeatedly. Neither company's tech support could explain it. I can only guess that the two programs write in dissimilar ways to the XMP files.

Photo Mechanic's UI for keywording isn't always entirely clear either. If I find myself needing keywords again I'll probably just make a script that reads a text file and calls ExifTool, and do it all at the command line. (Fortunately I have the luxury of being able to live without keywords...for now.)
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Re: Capture One 12.0 wish list....?

Postby SFA » Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:59 am

MikeArst wrote:.... especially after finding that I can't assign multiple keywords to more than one file at a time. Kind of a baffling design for the feature.


Mike,

You can assign multiple keywords to more than one file at the same time although it may not be possible the way you are expecting to do it. Or at least I can with V11 using Windows 7.

The most direct way is to select all of the images you want to share the same keywords, make sure that the "Edit all selected variants" toggle is set to be active for all, go the keyword tool and enter the words you wish add, new or existing, into the enter keywords box, add a comma between each word or phrase. When finished hit "return" and that's it, job done.

If you have a pre-prepared list just paste it in.

Remember that keywords are case sensitive.

As an alternative, add the words you want to use to one image then copy and apply to all of the other selected. One extra step.

Or, with all file selected, if one of them already has the keywords you wish to apply, with all images selected most of them will not and the pre-existing keywords found throughout the selected images will be displayed with an option to delete or a minus sign to indicate that some of the images lack the word or phrase. Click the minus words one at a time to add the word to all the selected images. So not quite all at the same time but, for a few clicks, very close to it.

The other option would be a preset as I mentioned previously but I'm not sure that would have a regular application for most people other then during import.

Hierarchies get a little more interesting. Beyond the scope of what I was planning to write for now.

Does this offer anything new?

Grant

ETA. I thought of a quick test using Hierarchical keyword structures.

Added 2 three level Hierarchical Kwds at the same time and got an instant update for the 135 variants selected.
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Re: Capture One 12.0 wish list....?

Postby MikeArst » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:24 am

Thanks. I've used the comma-separated list approach in the past, and it does work. What I'd hoped to do is select multiple selection of keywords already in a keyword library (within Capture One) and apply all at once to multiple images. There is of course another way — if it's now working: apply the keywords to a single image (in whatever way), then use copy/paste settings — with the usual caveats about turning off whatever settings should not be applied. I say "if it's now working" because in a previous version it wasn't working, as far as I could tell.
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Re: Capture One 12.0 wish list....?

Postby NNN636269374720392879 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:43 am

PNG 16-bit export :roll:
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Re: Capture One 12.0 wish list....?

Postby C-M-B » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:21 am

1. Fix the Wacom Tablet issues

2. Fix the Styles mess in the toolbar

3. Store previews and don't re-load them every time you open a catalog/session.
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Re: Capture One 12.0 wish list....?

Postby SFA » Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:54 pm

MikeArst wrote:Thanks. I've used the comma-separated list approach in the past, and it does work. What I'd hoped to do is select multiple selection of keywords already in a keyword library (within Capture One) and apply all at once to multiple images. There is of course another way — if it's now working: apply the keywords to a single image (in whatever way), then use copy/paste settings — with the usual caveats about turning off whatever settings should not be applied. I say "if it's now working" because in a previous version it wasn't working, as far as I could tell.


Mike,

If you copy and apply using only the Keyword tool copy and apply you will only copy the keywords and no other settings. You can also save a KW set as a prefix should that concept help your workflow.

If you have some or all of the words you want already in a Library start typing the word in the KW entry window and a list of matches will be offered. Pick the match, add a comma separator and start typing the next word until you have your list. Then apply it.

Or simply select all of the images you want to update, make sure the "Edit all variants toggle" is set as appropriate and go through the library double clicking the KWs you wish to apply. At least that's how it works on my system.

Or one can select the image or set of set of images and simply drag them to a selected KW on the KW section of the filters tool. That's an approach that can work quite well in some situations - for example identifying people or objects at an event where they appear in random groups during the shoot.

There may be further functionality that I have not mentioned here.

If we are looking to create a wish list for the future we may as well start out by considering the detail of what is available and then try to gain consensus about what is useful and what is not before moving on to potential enhancements.

I have no doubt that there are likely to be areas of obscure logic - I think indexing and its keyword derivative concept is often fraught with conflicting or partially conflicting requirements and some compromises where a wide basis needs to be satisfied.

Working in sessoins means that I can, to a large extent, identify content at the session level making some aspects of keywording for search purposes simpler because the session pre-selects subject matter.

However I still tend to think in terms of a Catalogue when assessing what keywords are really required since the catalogue approach is better aligned with self service selections in wider usage.


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Re: Capture One 12.0 wish list....?

Postby MikeArst » Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:38 pm

Grant — thanks for the additional suggestions.

<<"If you copy and apply using only the Keyword tool copy and apply you will only copy the keywords and no other settings. You can also save a KW set as a prefix should that concept help your workflow.">>

I think this meant "presets" and it strikes me as the most efficient approach. If you don't use a preset...what I think is lacking in the feature: the ability to select some, but not all, of a collection of keywords found under Session Keywords, then apply all of the selected keywords immediately to a batch of images. At the moment you can click only one at a time to apply it to all selected images. But, as you're saying, there are workarounds and it's true that a Session is a form of tagging unto itself.
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Re: Capture One 12.0 wish list....?

Postby SFA » Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:41 pm

MikeArst wrote:Grant — thanks for the additional suggestions.

<<"If you copy and apply using only the Keyword tool copy and apply you will only copy the keywords and no other settings. You can also save a KW set as a prefix should that concept help your workflow.">>

I think this meant "presets" and it strikes me as the most efficient approach. If you don't use a preset...what I think is lacking in the feature: the ability to select some, but not all, of a collection of keywords found under Session Keywords, then apply all of the selected keywords immediately to a batch of images. At the moment you can click only one at a time to apply it to all selected images. But, as you're saying, there are workarounds and it's true that a Session is a form of tagging unto itself.


Hi Mike,

Indeed it should be preset. Not sure where prefix came from except that I was thinking about session based naming conventions as file name prefixes. Maybe that ...

It is entirely possible to create some preset entries without associating the word groups with an image. In fact create several then stack them (perhaps pre-selectively?) on import of files.

What we really need are content recognition systems - some sort of AI the learns what is in the image and automatically writes a descrption and allocates keywords, then reports on the results by confidence level.

Now that would be worth paying for!


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Re: Capture One 12.0 wish list....?

Postby MikeArst » Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:57 pm

[i]>>What we really need are content recognition systems - some sort of AI the learns what is in the image and automatically writes a descrption and allocates keywords, then reports on the results by confidence level.<<[/i

Facebook has that (sort of): "Image may contain person, bird, outdoors." It works semi-well some of the time. :)
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Re: Capture One 12.0 wish list....?

Postby SFA » Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:59 am

MikeArst wrote:[color=#0000BF] It works semi-well some of the time. :)



That would never be acceptable!


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Re: Capture One 12.0 wish list....?

Postby MikeArst » Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:38 am

Another wish-list item:

If you remove a Session entirely by manually deleting it, the Session’s name remains “on record” in Capture One. Try to select it, and of course you see an error message. I can think of at least a couple of programs I’ve used that deal with such situations by announcing the error and then asking if you want to remove the non-existent item from the “Most Recently Used” list. Why not have this in Capture One as well? I can do it by closing Capture One and editing the USER.CONFIG file, found in a weirdly named directory within \program files\username\appdata\local\etc.etc.etc. But editing that kind of file is somewhat risky if you aren’t careful how you alter it — and shouldn’t be necessary.
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Re: Capture One 12.0 wish list....?

Postby SFA » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:27 pm

MikeArst wrote:Another wish-list item:

If you remove a Session entirely by manually deleting it, the Session’s name remains “on record” in Capture One. Try to select it, and of course you see an error message. I can think of at least a couple of programs I’ve used that deal with such situations by announcing the error and then asking if you want to remove the non-existent item from the “Most Recently Used” list. Why not have this in Capture One as well? I can do it by closing Capture One and editing the USER.CONFIG file, found in a weirdly named directory within \program files\username\appdata\local\etc.etc.etc. But editing that kind of file is somewhat risky if you aren’t careful how you alter it — and shouldn’t be necessary.


Mike,

Which version of Windows (I assume Windows) are are you using?

I have Win 7 Pro but I don't recognise anything about that folder structure. At least not under "Program files" and no etc.etc.etc that I have seen anywhere.


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Re: Capture One 12.0 wish list....?

Postby MikeArst » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:13 pm

SFA wrote:Which version of Windows (I assume Windows) are are you using?
I have Win 7 Pro but I don't recognise anything about that folder structure. At least not under "Program files" and no etc.etc.etc that I have seen anywhere.

Grant — I'm using Windows 10 pro. They must have changed the file's location. The file containing the settings in question might be in a different directory on Win 7. On my system its name is user.config. A search for it on my hard drive didn't turn up any such file except in the Phase_One subdirectories buried within \Program Files. When I tried searching for it via the old-style dir /s method it took quite a while. I can recommend the very interesting search tool called "Everything" (http://www.voidtools.com/faq/), which enabled me to find the user.config file within about a second when I searched for *phase_one\*user.config (a search "term" that doesn't ever seem to work at the command line — but Everything.exe is a more powerful kind of search — via command line or GUI).

The path name CaptureOne.exe_StrongName_y3yh4brhpfi14u41fltdrpfruizxirsn is certainly very odd. On my system it contains subdirectories for every Capture One version that has been installed here:

9.2.1.17
10.0.0.225
10.0.1.23
10.0.2.8
10.1.0.161
10.1.2.23
10.2.1.22
11.0.0.266
11.0.1.30
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