Capture One Always overlays grain

Discussions, questions, comments and suggestions regarding Capture One PRO, Capture One PRO(For Sony), Capture One DB and Capture One Express(For Sony) 11.x for Mac

Capture One Always overlays grain

Postby Fenjen » Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:51 pm

Hi,

I've been trying capture one but I noticed that C1 11 always overlays a slight grain which is visible in dark area's. Because of this when looking at the full image, no shadow area is completely dark (because it takes the average of a lot of pixels which is then grey). This grain is just overlayed as it doesn't respond to setting the black point trough the levels tool. The pattern of the grain is the exact pattern that gets amplified if you turn up the impact slider of the grain tool, so it seems that the grain tool is always active, even if the impact is set to 0.
Is there anyway to circumvent this? To me this seems like a really unnecessary feature..
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Re: Capture One Always overlays grain

Postby Ian3 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:58 pm

Are you sure it isn't noise? Is it affected by the noise reduction settings?

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Re: Capture One Always overlays grain

Postby Fenjen » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:15 pm

Ian3 wrote:Are you sure it isn't noise? Is it affected by the noise reduction settings?

Ian


Yes I'm sure, it isn't affected by any exposure setting or noise reduction. It's a constant overlay of noise.
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Re: Capture One Always overlays grain

Postby Ian3 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:24 pm

Fenjen wrote:
Ian3 wrote:Are you sure it isn't noise? Is it affected by the noise reduction settings?

Ian


Yes I'm sure, it isn't affected by any exposure setting or noise reduction. It's a constant overlay of noise.

In that case there isn't accidentally some style involving grain being applied at import, is there?

Ian
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Re: Capture One Always overlays grain

Postby Fenjen » Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:28 pm

Ian3 wrote:
Fenjen wrote:
Ian3 wrote:Are you sure it isn't noise? Is it affected by the noise reduction settings?

Ian


Yes I'm sure, it isn't affected by any exposure setting or noise reduction. It's a constant overlay of noise.

In that case there isn't accidentally some style involving grain being applied at import, is there?

Ian


I don't have a preset that does something like that. Also I obviously made sure the intensity slider of the grain tool was set to zero.
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Re: Capture One Always overlays grain

Postby SFA » Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:31 pm

Fenjen,

Any chance of posting a sample file to a file sharing service somewhere so people could take a look?

I think it may have reached the point when people need to see what is happening and look at things in C1 themselves before they are likely to have any deeper inspiration.

Grant
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Re: Capture One Always overlays grain

Postby Fenjen » Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:25 pm

SFA wrote:Fenjen,

Any chance of posting a sample file to a file sharing service somewhere so people could take a look?

I think it may have reached the point when people need to see what is happening and look at things in C1 themselves before they are likely to have any deeper inspiration.

Grant


Here is a link to the noise pattern. It's slight but this causes the dark parts to average to grey and not be completely black.
https://ibb.co/d1AocG
This is with the shadow level to 255 and exposure -4. It didn't really matter to what I set them because because it didn't affect the pattern.
Here it is amplified so it's easier to see: https://ibb.co/eLuLrb
There obviously should be no structure at all.
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Re: Capture One Always overlays grain

Postby SFA » Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:56 pm

To see anything but black on my notebook screen for the first one I have to turn the brightness right up and then use an off-centreline viewing angle to make any patterning appear.

The second one is a little more obvious but again mainly when using an off-centre viewing angle in conjunction with a very bright screen.

I'd really like to try to see what is going on with an original file.

In theory you could just shoot a dark frame and whatever it is should be visible. Looks like regular highish ISO sensor electronics noise to me but absent a RAW file (or indeed the camera used!) it's difficult to be sure.



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Re: Capture One Always overlays grain

Postby C-M-B » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:23 am

Could it be that the layer raises the dark/black values and thereby intruduces noise? Or that too much sharpening is applied on the new layer and that amplifies existing noise levels?
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Re: Capture One Always overlays grain

Postby Fenjen » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:55 am

It really isn't noise caused by the camera as exposure settings don't affect it, it is applied after exposure and level settings. If it were noise, you could crush it by using the levels tool. As I said this is impossible and it doesn't even change a bit when changing those settings. You also really don't need any file from me as it is independent of the file, just try one of your own. Of course it will not show very well with a dim screen, but it is visible on my screen without doing anything special like you mentioned.

To C-M-B, it is independent of all settings. Sharpening was turned off (even though it didn't change how the noise looked). As I said I turned the exposure to -4 and the black level to 255, there was no detail at al left in the image. All noise from my camera was crushed into oblivion, as that changed with the exposure. This doesn't as mentioned, it really is just applied after the fact.

I know it's not that visible but it has a visible inpact on my overall image (as I said it causes dark parts to average to grey) and it really just seems like a dumb and unnecessary feature.
Last edited by Fenjen on Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Capture One Always overlays grain

Postby HansB » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:11 pm

SFA wrote:...
I'd really like to try to see what is going on with an original file.
...

Just joining in on Grant's offer: could you share one of your problematic image files, as EIP and with adjustments? I'm sure there are a number of users around here willing to have a look and to help, including me.


Regards,
Hans
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Re: Capture One Always overlays grain

Postby ben_US » Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:07 pm

Additionally, Tech Support is interested as well. Could you please create a case via the link in my sig?
Please make a support case for Technical Support with Capture One software:
http://support.phaseone.com and click on Contact Support, then select Technical Support.
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Re: Capture One Always overlays grain

Postby Fenjen » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:27 pm

HansB wrote:
SFA wrote:...
I'd really like to try to see what is going on with an original file.
...

Just joining in on Grant's offer: could you share one of your problematic image files, as EIP and with adjustments? I'm sure there are a number of users around here willing to have a look and to help, including me.


Regards,
Hans


As I said there are no problematic image files, all of them do it. I tried NEF files (Nikon 1) ORF (Olympus E-M10 II) and RAF (Fuji X-T1) and all of them show the same. I have made a video showing the effect (ignore the ugly photo, it was a test shot). I will explain what I'm doing here:
First I show the actual noise from the image and that it changes with the exposure setting. Then when I have the exposure low enough there is some residual noise that does not get any less bright. Then at around 45 seconds I show that this noise is unaffected by the luminance slider. Then at around 58 seconds I try to show that the grain is exactly the grain that gets amplified with the impact slider of the film grain, altough this is hard too see due to youtube's compression. I have then prepared two jpgs. DSCF2958 and DSCF2958 1. The first is an export of the raf with exposure -4 and black level 255 and the second is an export of that jpg with dark level again 255 (so that all noise is crushed). You can see clearly when I switch between the two that the first is grey, while the second image is completely black. The second image has no residual noise left, so the noise isn't applied on jpg files.

Here's the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuIqQuWhCkc
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Re: Capture One Always overlays grain

Postby John Doe » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:21 pm

You should file a bug report.
Sony DSC-RX100 - Capture One Pro 10.2.1 (macOS Sierra 10.12.6)
THIS IS A USER TO USER FORUM. FOR FEATURE REQUESTS AND BUG REPORTS, FILE A SUPPORT CASE AT https://www.phaseone.com/SupportMain.aspx
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Re: Capture One Always overlays grain

Postby SFA » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:49 pm

For some reason the link to the video just gives me a "This Video is not available" response.


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