Embedded color profile for L.Type prints

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Embedded color profile for L.Type prints

Postby BeO » Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:27 pm

Hi

L.Type is a printing service. They require that the files (tif or jpg) have a color profile embedded.

http://www.l-type.com/cargo/LType_Print_File_Guidelines.pdf
"All images should be supplied in Adobe RGB format, with embedded profile"

They also provide ICC profiles of their printers:

"We pride ourselves on our colour accuracy and believe that our printers are the most accurate in the world within gamut. Every printer is calibrated at least once a day and every time a new roll of paper is used. We build our own target profiles for each paper we use, and have ICC profiles for each media type. These media-specific ICC profiles are available if you wish to soft proof using a calibrated colour-managed monitor. "

Now, if I want to soft-proof in C1 I would create a process recipe with the respective L.Type ICC profile and enable recipe proofing. So far so good.
I would assume that if I actually process the image with this recipe, that the resulting file will have the selected ICC profile embedded.
- Is this assumption correct? Does the file have the profile embedded?
- How can I check that a profile is indeed embedded, or which exact profile is embedded?

I also have a incomplete understanding of L-Type's requirement. They say the files should be supplied in Adobe RGB format, is this the same as embedding "Adobe RGB (1988) ICC" profile? So, I should not embedd their printer profile hence not use the C1 proof profile for actual doing the output processing?

In other words in C1 I need one profile for soft-proofing (printer profile) and one profile to output the image to file (Adobe RGB profile)?

thx, help is very much appreciated!
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Re: Embedded color profile for L.Type prints

Postby ben_US » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:10 pm

BeO wrote:I would assume that if I actually process the image with this recipe, that the resulting file will have the selected ICC profile embedded.
- Is this assumption correct? Does the file have the profile embedded?

Yes.
BeO wrote:- How can I check that a profile is indeed embedded, or which exact profile is embedded?

Import the image (or, in a session, just navigate the library to that file's folder) and select the image. In the Base Characteristics tool, it will say From File ([the embedded profile's name]). Also, the Metadata tool will list the profile as well. But:

BeO wrote:I also have a incomplete understanding of L-Type's requirement. They say the files should be supplied in Adobe RGB format, is this the same as embedding "Adobe RGB (1988) ICC" profile? So, I should not embedd their printer profile hence not use the C1 proof profile for actual doing the output processing?


If they are asking for Adobe 1998, give them Adobe 1998. Do not embed the printer's profile, but instead use it as the Proof Profile (View > Proof Profile) in Capture One. With Recipe Proofing enabled, the Proof Profile is overridden by the output profile. So, you're using their printer profile to check colors, but delivering Adobe 1998 and trusting they will do the conversion properly.

BeO wrote:In other words in C1 I need one profile for soft-proofing (printer profile) and one profile to output the image to file (Adobe RGB profile)?

Yep!
Please make a support case for Technical Support with Capture One software:
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Re: Embedded color profile for L.Type prints

Postby BeO » Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:42 pm

Thanks a lot Ben!

This makes it clear (I think). In other words, printer profiles should never be embedded in the file sent to a printer or printing service or is this a particularity with L.Type?

I could not find a way to see an embedded profile in Window properties, so, your hint to use C1 base characteristics or metadata helped a lot!

thx.
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Re: Embedded color profile for L.Type prints

Postby ben_US » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:04 pm

I can't say for certain that you should never embed a printer profile, but in my experience it's typical for the printing service to do the conversion in-house rather than relying on the user to get it straight prior to submitting the files. I can say it's always a good idea to soft proof on a recently-calibrated monitor with the printer profile.
Please make a support case for Technical Support with Capture One software:
http://support.phaseone.com and click on Contact Support, then select Technical Support.
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Re: Embedded color profile for L.Type prints

Postby BeO » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:25 pm

Thank you!
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Re: Embedded color profile for L.Type prints

Postby BeO » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:36 pm

ben_US wrote:I can say it's always a good idea to soft proof on a recently-calibrated monitor with the printer profile.


I still have a question which I cannot find a word in any documentation, blog or elsewhere. The question is, if I want to soft-proof an image in C1 with the printer profile provided by the printing service (just as an example "Lumejet S200 HDX Premium Glossy (1706)M1.icc", which I installed in Win7), which setting/mode/color space should I select on my monitor?

I have an Eizo CS240 which supports 99% Adobe RGB (but also sRGB of course) and each monitor is factory calibrated. I assume an additional user side calibration with a colorimeter would adjust subtle tones (I might do this in the future) but I see HUGE differences when switching from sRGB to AdobeRGB on the monitor itself (by pressing a monitor button and select the color space).

So, soft-proofing in C1 with printer profile, which color space to select on my monitor? Does it make sense at all to soft-proof without going to the user side calibration? (I would assume yes if the monitor is in a good factory calibration state)

Thanks in advance,
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Re: Embedded color profile for L.Type prints

Postby ben_US » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:37 pm

BeO wrote:
ben_US wrote:I can say it's always a good idea to soft proof on a recently-calibrated monitor with the printer profile.

So, soft-proofing in C1 with printer profile, which color space to select on my monitor? Does it make sense at all to soft-proof without going to the user side calibration? (I would assume yes if the monitor is in a good factory calibration state)

Thanks in advance,
BeO


The widest possible, in this case Adobe 1998. That being said, if you're going to soft proof, it's best to have as much per-unit calibration as possible. Personally I wouldn't recommend trusting a factory calibration as it doesn't take into account the considerations external to the display's panel. This, of course, is a whole other can of worms. If you have the means, profile your monitor.
Please make a support case for Technical Support with Capture One software:
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Re: Embedded color profile for L.Type prints

Postby pawl_s » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:36 pm

If you have AdobeRGB monitor, set it to this color space. Export from CaptureOne with embedded AdobeRGB color profile. Use printer profile for soft-proofing only.

PS: L.Type wrote also, that without embedded profile, they will assume sRGB.

Best regards,
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Re: Embedded color profile for L.Type prints

Postby BeO » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:09 pm

Thank you ben_us and pawl_s.

By any chance, do you happen to know if C1 soft-proof is doing a black point compensation and paper white simulation when using a printer profile? I believe you can set this in Photoshop, but in C1 you don't have any (such) settings to choose from when soft-proofing.
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Re: Embedded color profile for L.Type prints

Postby pawl_s » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:39 am

BeO wrote:By any chance, do you happen to know if C1 soft-proof is doing a black point compensation and paper white simulation when using a printer profile?


I did not look for black point compensation option so far, so I cannot tell. But found this https://www.martinbaileyphotography.com ... dcast-575/ and especially this sentence: "To actually see gamut warnings, open the image in Photoshop and go to View > Proof Setup > Custom and select your ICC profile as the Device to Simulate. I generally turn off Black Point Compensation as I usually don’t print with that turned on. Using Simulate Black Ink and also Simulate Paper Color can show the results too harshly, but it’s good to check to see the effects and get used to the difference."


Regarding paper: it seems, that L.Types icc profiles are prepared for each type of paper they use. So no paper simulation seems to be necessary when printing there.

Just found an interesting article: https://blog.phaseone.com/exporting-and ... e-one-pro/

Best regards,
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Re: Embedded color profile for L.Type prints

Postby BeO » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:30 pm

pawl_s wrote:
BeO wrote:By any chance, do you happen to know if C1 soft-proof is doing a black point compensation and paper white simulation when using a printer profile?


I did not look for black point compensation option so far, so I cannot tell. But found this https://www.martinbaileyphotography.com ... dcast-575/ and especially this sentence: "To actually see gamut warnings, open the image in Photoshop and go to View > Proof Setup > Custom and select your ICC profile as the Device to Simulate. I generally turn off Black Point Compensation as I usually don’t print with that turned on. Using Simulate Black Ink and also Simulate Paper Color can show the results too harshly, but it’s good to check to see the effects and get used to the difference."


Regarding paper: it seems, that L.Types icc profiles are prepared for each type of paper they use. So no paper simulation seems to be necessary when printing there.


Yes, I know Martin Bailey's post. Actually I wondered if his approach to desaturate the out of gamut colors is nothing else than letting the software do a "relative colorimetric" rendering, but probably less refined.

I do not use Photoshop currently, saving the subcription fees but mainly trying to keep my workflow as lean as possible.

I got this information from L.Type: In the software (Photoshop or CaptureOne) you need to select a soft proofing using our media profile for you chosen media. Choose a perceptual rendering intent and its advisable to use blackpoint compensation. In photoshop, our experience has shown that simulate paper white can be too aggressive which can make the monitor’s image washed out with poor blacks. In practice, this isn’t the case though. I would recommend not using simulate paper white.

My point is, there are no options in C1 for black point compensation or paper white simulation to influence, and I have no idea what C1 is doing here.

Thanks for the links.
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Re: Embedded color profile for L.Type prints

Postby pawl_s » Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:40 am

BeO wrote:My point is, there are no options in C1 for black point compensation or paper white simulation to influence, and I have no idea what C1 is doing here.



Me neither :D I have found an Adobe document, where they state the Black Point Compensation option in Photoshop is a proprietary Adobe feature. Possibly therefore not present in Capture One.

But additionally there is http://www.gamutvision.com/docs/blackpoint.html where in Details section it is stated that BPC is not used in perceptual rendering intent - not needed?

I would not care about it as long as I am not out of gamut when printing.

Best regards,
pawl_s

PS: I plan to use CP1 code for L.Type prints too ;)
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