My browns seem a bit red - What can i do?

Discussions, questions, comments and suggestions regarding Capture One PRO, Capture One DB and Capture One Express 7.x

Re: My browns seem a bit red - What can i do?

Postby NNN635103620282925392 » Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:27 am

Ian3 wrote:
NNN635103620282925392 wrote:I've made 3 rough outputs from 3 different processing programs (note: all I've done is adjusted the white balance via a white card next to the dog). I've used Capture 1 Express 7, Capture NX-D (from Nikon), and Lightroom 4

I've uploaded them to my Microsoft OneDrive, if anyone wants to view them:

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=F587D73C02F4DBBB!9936&authkey=!AJLIYl43SmGvf2k&ithint=folder%2cjpg

Thanks

There are differences between the Capture NX-D version and the Lightroom version too, I'd say. Nice dog!

Ian


Agreed. However, he is definitely a brown dog rather than reddish. So, i feel Capture One's colours were the most obviously wrong. However, i'm able to counter that now just by using the ICC from the D300 instead. I kinda wish Capture One gave true colours rather than giving you what they think would be a more pleasing set, because in my case my dog no longer looks the right colour (if i use the default ICC), lol.

One thing i'm loving about Capture One is i somehow seem to be producing photos that have more detail and look clearer whilst still looking natural. Not too sure how im doing it, but i must be doing something right, lol

Ps. thanks for compliment. He is a lovely dog. A bit neurotic outside (i.e there's a prediction of danger around every corner), but inside he is a different animal and so playful :)
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Re: My browns seem a bit red - What can i do?

Postby Ian3 » Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:56 am

As an alternative to using the ICC for a different camera, you can also tweak the ICC profile for your own camera and save it. I haven't tried it myself but there are some details on the C1 blog here http://blog.phaseone.com/tweak-the-default-color-look-of-your-camera/ and here http://blog.phaseone.com/move-your-custom-made-icc-profiles-to-other-computers/.

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Re: My browns seem a bit red - What can i do?

Postby Keith Reeder » Mon Aug 25, 2014 11:52 am

Ian3 wrote:As an alternative to using the ICC for a different camera, you can also tweak the ICC profile for your own camera and save it.

You can't do that in Express, Ian - it is, bafflingly, a Pro-only option. That's why I suggested the idea of using a different pre-existing profile (the OP is using Express, as far as I can tell):
Two options: create a new default profile with the reds pulled back a bit; or use an older camera profile (maybe the D300 profile?) which will probably have less of a warm bias.

This latter option works for "Express" users too, and once you've found a profile that suits, it's easy enough to rename it (via the computer file system/OS) to become the default for the D7000.
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Re: My browns seem a bit red - What can i do?

Postby Ian3 » Mon Aug 25, 2014 1:53 pm

Sorry - didn't realise it was a Pro only feature. Pro is quite inexpensive at the moment, isn't it?

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Re: My browns seem a bit red - What can i do?

Postby Keith Reeder » Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:14 pm

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Re: My browns seem a bit red - What can i do?

Postby FredBGG » Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:18 pm

NNN635103620282925392 wrote:Agreed. However, he is definitely a brown dog rather than reddish. So, i feel Capture One's colours were the most obviously wrong. However, i'm able to counter that now just by using the ICC from the D300 instead. I kinda wish Capture One gave true colours rather than giving you what they think would be a more pleasing set, because in my case my dog no longer looks the right colour (if i use the default ICC),


I totally agree. A professional RAW converter should by default have an accurate RAW conversion.
No problem adding other so called "pleasing" alternatives.

I also find that older profiles are more accurate and that in particular the profiles of higher end 35mm DSLR's are
given these altered "so called pleasing" profiles.

For example the d800 profile gives people a fake tan of sorts, and the v2 of the d800 profile is too reddish in the skin tones.

Phase One claims "precise colors" in their wording on their website:

Capture One Pro 7 is the world’s best raw converter rendering precise colors and incredible detail with support for leading high-end cameras.
.

But what you get is somewhat stylized/subjective. Most commercial product clients will not be happy with altered colors.
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Re: My browns seem a bit red - What can i do?

Postby FredBGG » Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:24 pm

Ian3 wrote:Sorry - didn't realise it was a Pro only feature. Pro is quite inexpensive at the moment, isn't it?

Ian


It is nearly always on sale. 50% off most of the time. IF you download the trail version your most likely going to have a sale within the 60 day trial period.
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Re: My browns seem a bit red - What can i do?

Postby Peter » Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:12 pm

I am with FredBGG on this one. Colour-conscious photographers will have gone to some trouble to calibrate their computer screen and printer to accurately reflect 'what is' in the image file. Surely the least they can expect from a raw converter is an accurate colour starting point? Personally I find DPP (Canon) and IDC (Sony) very good in getting the default colours right, to my eyes. Then I can compare with other raw converters if needs be.

However I suspect there may be some play on words when describing the colour of raw exports. What do we mean by 'right', 'accurate' and 'precise'. I suggest these words have different meanings despite their everyday use as quasi-synonyms. In scientific circles there has been much discussion on the difference between 'accurate' and 'precise'. Try this:

'right' is a subjective, personal preference based on memory recall or what is intended
'accurate' is an unbiased replicate based on a defined benchmark - but it may not look 'right'
'precise' means closely defined and controlled - but not necessarily 'accurate' or 'right'

I suggest Phase's use of 'precise' neatly circumvents the reality that Cap1 colours are (deliberately, we are told) not accurate. In my experience it is definitely Cap1 that is out of line (i.e. inaccurate) in their reds compared with other raw converters. So Cap1 users have to fiddle about to try to get back to their view of 'accurate/right'. I think aggravation describes this process very well - we are fighting against Cap1 instead of working with it.

My solution? Phase should offer a preset that allows users to select an 'accurate colour' rendition, alongside the other options that are available in Cap1 (too many perhaps?). Personally I am very dubious about what Phase describes as 'generic' camera profiles. These indicate to me that Phase has very few specific camera profiles that are colour-accurate. Hence the Cap1 'look', perhaps?

In the meantime, I find LR5 outputs are more acceptable in establishing a starting point for refinement. On the rare occasions that I want to see what Cap1 can do I have created my own user styles that selectively show me the effect of step-changes in colour temperature and desaturation (yellow and red) to reduce the amount of fiddling about. User styles are so easy - just hover the mouse pointer and see a new rendition instantly! Full marks here to Phase.

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Re: My browns seem a bit red - What can i do?

Postby ChrisM » Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:57 pm

Peter wrote:I am with FredBGG on this one. Colour-conscious photographers will have gone to some trouble to calibrate their computer screen and printer to accurately reflect 'what is' in the image file. Surely the least they can expect from a raw converter is an accurate colour starting point? Personally I find DPP (Canon) and IDC (Sony) very good in getting the default colours right, to my eyes. Then I can compare with other raw converters if needs be.

However I suspect there may be some play on words when describing the colour of raw exports. What do we mean by 'right', 'accurate' and 'precise'. I suggest these words have different meanings despite their everyday use as quasi-synonyms. In scientific circles there has been much discussion on the difference between 'accurate' and 'precise'. Try this:

'right' is a subjective, personal preference based on memory recall or what is intended
'accurate' is an unbiased replicate based on a defined benchmark - but it may not look 'right'
'precise' means closely defined and controlled - but not necessarily 'accurate' or 'right'

I suggest Phase's use of 'precise' neatly circumvents the reality that Cap1 colours are (deliberately, we are told) not accurate. In my experience it is definitely Cap1 that is out of line (i.e. inaccurate) in their reds compared with other raw converters. So Cap1 users have to fiddle about to try to get back to their view of 'accurate/right'. I think aggravation describes this process very well - we are fighting against Cap1 instead of working with it.

My solution? Phase should offer a preset that allows users to select an 'accurate colour' rendition, alongside the other options that are available in Cap1 (too many perhaps?). Personally I am very dubious about what Phase describes as 'generic' camera profiles. These indicate to me that Phase has very few specific camera profiles that are colour-accurate. Hence the Cap1 'look', perhaps?

In the meantime, I find LR5 outputs are more acceptable in establishing a starting point for refinement. On the rare occasions that I want to see what Cap1 can do I have created my own user styles that selectively show me the effect of step-changes in colour temperature and desaturation (yellow and red) to reduce the amount of fiddling about. User styles are so easy - just hover the mouse pointer and see a new rendition instantly! Full marks here to Phase.

Peter


I don't completely agree with you here, CO1 generic profiles dó quite often suffer from color casts, or simply one part of the color spectrum suffering from a shift. Still I find the results much more true to life, or life-like, then e.g. Lightroom or camera raw or most other raw converters. It's a pity about the often so very obvious color casts though, i.e. obvious on my calibrated Eizo screen. For that reason alone I would applaud, as I suggested earlier, that Phase one would include a similar to DxO optics "neutral color, neutral tonality", option.
You can customize your way out of, or into most anything with CO1, and also here it is superior to other raw converters i.m.o., but a good neutral starting point regarding color and tonality would really be a bliss.

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Re: My browns seem a bit red - What can i do?

Postby Drew » Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:02 pm

A color conscious photographer, and there are thousands, DEMAND accuracy. It's a requirement, not a preference.
That being the case, no "factory" solution is going to give them the 100% accuracy they need. A custom measured and calibrated ICC Profile, under the controlled lights, from the specific Camera, using the specific lens, is the only answer.

There are many reproduction companies that we work with who have a specific profile, for a specific Nikon or Canon, out of dozens that are "identical" from the factory. So even production from one camera to the next is not always bulletproof (so yes, your X Camera will look slightly different form another users "identical" camera). Custom Measure and calibration is the only option if you want 100% accuracy... and even with what is rendered as accurate, it's no guarantee that you'll actually LIKE the results.

So, if you are serious about accuracy you will make your own ICC profile.

Unfortunately most other color render arguments are quite subjective and regardless of what anyone feels Phase One should do, it will not work for everyones workflow. In the wise words of the Mr. Jagger ... "You can't always get what you want" :wink:

If anyone has specific color render questions or concerns, please simply provide us a Capture of a known value under rather universal lighting. For example, an X-Rite chart in the bright, cloud free, midday sun. With that we can certainly investigate color concerns. Without it however, we are simply arguing preference of the user or variances of their equipment.
Kind Regards,
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Re: My browns seem a bit red - What can i do?

Postby NNN635103620282925392 » Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:00 pm

Hmmm, ^ long reply.

Maybe i was expecting too much then, to simply load my raw file into Capture One, and expect my brown dog to still brown and not red, lol
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Re: My browns seem a bit red - What can i do?

Postby Drew » Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:40 pm

NNN635103620282925392 wrote:
Maybe i was expecting too much then, to simply load my raw file into Capture One, and expect my brown dog to still brown and not red, lol


Sometimes brown hair looks red at sunset or sunrise :wink:
Is your Dog a Burnt Umber shade of brown? Perhaps a bit more of an Iron Ore?
Sometimes "red" and "brick red" are argued to be different colors, one wrong and the other right... so all things considered it's important to keep in mind that "correct" color can be subjective and the only way to address the concerns accurately is to provide a RAW file under standard conditions.

I'm all for a lively discussion of color render, but without examples that can be reproduced, it's a conversation that will just go around and around... etc
Kind Regards,
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Re: My browns seem a bit red - What can i do?

Postby NNN635103620282925392 » Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:12 pm

Hi, thanks for the reply.

If you scroll up you'll see i've uploaded some examples to my Microsoft OneDrive. Take a peek please.

If you need the Raw file i can upload that too. In fact there's numerous Raw files i could provide, and some are even more redder.
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Re: My browns seem a bit red - What can i do?

Postby Keith Reeder » Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:13 pm

NNN635103620282925392 wrote:Hmmm, ^ long reply.


But it's a good reply.

Look: I'm no Phase One apologist (track down the "CO 7 Express someday?" thread and you'll see that) but Phase One has been entirely above-board about the nature of its profiles; and has provided a tool (in Pro anyway) which allows us easily to create any profile/look we might want.

And I'll say this again, too: Capture One sells on the "look" of its output, and the way it renders colours is a big part of that.

Now, it may be that other converters might get your dog's colour closer to right "out of the box", but you're going to be tweaking all sorts of parameters in any converter you use before you're satisfied, and (say) having to pull the reds back a bit in the Colo(u)r Editor tool isn't exactly onerous, especially given how easy it is to copy and apply adjustments across a number of files (if you're not going to (or can't) create a new profile/can't find a pre-existing one that suits).

Yes, we all agree that later profiles seem to bias towards warmth - and yes, I would sometimes rather they didn't (for me that's simply because I prefer a cooler look to my images, not because I'm bent out of shape about the "inaccuracy" per se - I even correct "Golden Hour" images to look less like they were shot in the Golden Hour! ;))

But I don't consider it to be a problem, because I'll be adjusting just about every other thing in the files I process anyway, and see making colour adjustments as just another necessary evil which I'd be making in one way or another whether I was in Capture One, Lightroom, Photo Ninja, ACDSee, DPP or any other converter.

Capture One gets a lot of other things right by default though (I'm usually done quicker in Capture One than I tend to be in other converters), so I'm inclined to be pretty relaxed about the idea that I might sometimes have to tweak the default colour rendition.

Oh - and despite some of the comments up the page, I've yet to see it written anywhere that a converter's colours "must" be colorimetrically accurate...
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Re: My browns seem a bit red - What can i do?

Postby SFA » Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:52 pm

NNN635103620282925392 wrote:Hi, thanks for the reply.

If you scroll up you'll see i've uploaded some examples to my Microsoft OneDrive. Take a peek please.

If you need the Raw file i can upload that too. In fact there's numerous Raw files i could provide, and some are even more redder.


I think the colour of your dog is one of the more challenging colours to render. Very small adjustments can produce huge differences as can lighting conditions, especially in the regular 'incandescent' range of non-natural lighting and at different times of the day when outside.

Your samples, as converted and then seen through my screen (high end notebook) and browser (Firefox) look, to me, as follows.

Left image the possibly a bit red (I don't know the dog of course but I have a feel for the general colouring that is likely).

Middle image - strikes me as rather yellow especially the edges of the dog's outline.

Right Image - a bit 'flat'. Looking at the leather cushions I would say it has a very slightly blue tinge. But then the amount of different could just as easily be related to the back lighting in my screen.

There are so many possible variable in the mix, not the least being the way out eyes 'see' what we call colour and our brains interpret the signals the eyes pass on, that we might go around and around here.

Nevertheless I for one would find it interesting to be able to have access to the original RAW file in order to run some comparisons on a couple of software products.



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