My browns seem a bit red - What can i do?

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My browns seem a bit red - What can i do?

Postby NNN635103620282925392 » Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:14 am

I'm fairly knew to Raw file processing and so any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Further info:

My camera is a DSLR Nikon D3100. My Software is Capture One Express 7. The problem happens even when all image settings are at defaults (i.e straight after import). The ICC profile (in base characteristics) says Nikon D3100 generic.

A lot of my photos seems fine. However i have a brown dog (chocolate colour), and most of the photos of him come out with him looking slightly red!. It's not a lot, but is noticeable. What's the best way to deal with the problem? Apologies as i'm fairly knew to all this.

Thanks.
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Re: My browns seem a bit red - What can i do?

Postby Paul_Steunebrink » Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:34 am

Do I understand you correctly when I Say that the colors in CO7 are fine, but the processed (exported) file is not? How do you view the processed file?
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Paul E. Steunebrink, Image Alchemist (website All about Capture One), Capture One trainer
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Re: My browns seem a bit red - What can i do?

Postby NNN635103620282925392 » Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:48 am

Paul_Steunebrink wrote:Do I understand you correctly when I Say that the colors in CO7 are fine, but the processed (exported) file is not? How do you view the processed file?

No, the browns seem a bit red in both the program (during editing) and when exported too.

Thanks.
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Re: My browns seem a bit red - What can i do?

Postby Ian3 » Sun Aug 24, 2014 10:23 am

It is possible that the camera's auto white balance is confused at times. I find that I rarely get good colours when I take photos in a wood for example (on a Nikon D7000). Is it possible to take some photos of the dog say with a piece of white paper by it, or a grey card, or something that is a known neutral grey? Then adjust that photo in C1 using the eye dropper on the neutral object. That way you know you have the colour balance right. What does the colour of the dog look like then?

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Re: My browns seem a bit red - What can i do?

Postby NNN635103620282925392 » Sun Aug 24, 2014 11:32 am

Ian3 wrote:It is possible that the camera's auto white balance is confused at times. I find that I rarely get good colours when I take photos in a wood for example (on a Nikon D7000). Is it possible to take some photos of the dog say with a piece of white paper by it, or a grey card, or something that is a known neutral grey? Then adjust that photo in C1 using the eye dropper on the neutral object. That way you know you have the colour balance right. What does the colour of the dog look like then?

Ian


Hi, I've just done a test shot with a white card next to my brown dog. I've processed the file with 3 programs (Capture 1 Express 7, Capture NX-D from Nikon, and Lightroom 4). I've adjusted the white balance via the white card. Again, in the Capture 1 version the dog looks reddish, but not in the versions from Capture NX-D or Lightroom.
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Re: My browns seem a bit red - What can i do?

Postby Ian3 » Sun Aug 24, 2014 11:44 am

Worth trying. Let's see what anyone else has to suggest.

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Re: My browns seem a bit red - What can i do?

Postby NNN635103620282925392 » Sun Aug 24, 2014 11:48 am

I've made 3 rough outputs from 3 different processing programs (note: all I've done is adjusted the white balance via a white card next to the dog). I've used Capture 1 Express 7, Capture NX-D (from Nikon), and Lightroom 4

I've uploaded them to my Microsoft OneDrive, if anyone wants to view them:

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=F587D73C02F4DBBB!9936&authkey=!AJLIYl43SmGvf2k&ithint=folder%2cjpg

Thanks
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Re: My browns seem a bit red - What can i do?

Postby NNN635103620282925392 » Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:14 pm

Sorry for posting 2 replies in a row....

I've noticed that i can change the ICC profile in the 'base characteristics' tool. In doing a quick random sample of the other options within it, i found 'Nikon D50 generic'. When i choose that instead of the proper D3100 generic for my camera, the colours look much better and how they should be.

What effects does changing the ICC profile have on the image in Capture One. Is it only the colour that's effected, or does it effect other values under the hood, like the default starting point for the amount of noise reduction, or light fall off etc.
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Re: My browns seem a bit red - What can i do?

Postby Keith Reeder » Sun Aug 24, 2014 1:46 pm

I've noticed - and mentioned here - that for a long time now, newer cameras profiles all seem to be biased towards warm red/orange: it's the Capture One "look".

Two options: create a new default profile with the reds pulled back a bit; or use an older camera profile (maybe the D300 profile?) which will probably have less of a warm bias.

This latter option works for "Express" users too, and once you've found a profile that suits, it's easy enough to rename it (via the computer file system/OS) to become the default for the D7000.

(Added: ah - seems you've found the same solutions yourself! ;))

The ICC profiles are just ICC profiles: everything else like default NR etc. is Exif/camera ID-based.
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Re: My browns seem a bit red - What can i do?

Postby NNN635103620282925392 » Sun Aug 24, 2014 3:44 pm

Keith Reeder wrote:I've noticed - and mentioned here - that for a long time now, newer cameras profiles all seem to be biased towards warm red/orange: it's the Capture One "look".

Two options: create a new default profile with the reds pulled back a bit; or use an older camera profile (maybe the D300 profile?) which will probably have less of a warm bias.

This latter option works for "Express" users too, and once you've found a profile that suits, it's easy enough to rename it (via the computer file system/OS) to become the default for the D7000.

(Added: ah - seems you've found the same solutions yourself! ;))

The ICC profiles are just ICC profiles: everything else like default NR etc. is Exif/camera ID-based.


Thank you so much Keith, i just needed it all confirmed.
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Re: My browns seem a bit red - What can i do?

Postby Peter » Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:16 pm

So, if I understand these exchanges correctly, it is now accepted that Cap1 output colours are not only out of step with other raw converters, but they have a definite red cast. I can confirm this with my own Sony RX100M2 ARW files.

Another source of aggravation for Cap1 users, I suggest!

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Re: My browns seem a bit red - What can i do?

Postby NNN635103620282925392 » Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:40 pm

Keith (or anybody else)

Can i ask 1 more question.

I'm migrating from a Lightroom user to a Capture One user now.

You know the light falloff slider. Is it the same thing as the Vignetting slider in Lightroom (not the post crop one)? Am i also right in believing that Capture One automatically under the hood knows which values to play with for any given lens at any given aperture etc., and sliding this slider to 100% is the same as totally & accurately removing the vignetting caused by the lens (but no over correction). In other words, if i don't like the natural vignetting that any lens will produce for any of my images can i just whack this slider up to 100% for every image?
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Re: My browns seem a bit red - What can i do?

Postby Keith Reeder » Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:47 pm

Peter wrote:So, if I understand these exchanges correctly, it is now accepted that Cap1 output colours are not only out of step with other raw converters...


Well no, it's not "accepted" - no two converters (and I use lots of them) interpret colour the same way: they're all out of step with each other, because none of them are definitively "right".

But it is a matter of record - confirmed by Phase One staff on here - that Capture One's profiles are not meant to be colorimetrically accurate, but to be pleasing; and in that regard, mission accomplished, because one thing above all others that people compliment Capture One for its how it renders colours.

As to this being a source of aggravation - not for me, it isn't.

Beginning with the understanding that Phase One doesn't exist purely to make me my own perfect converter, I accept that everyone's idea of a good colour starting point is likely to be different, and that Phase One's defaults are therefore as good as anyone's - as a starting point.

Doesn't mean we've all got to like them, though - but sorting it out is easy enough.
Last edited by Keith Reeder on Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My browns seem a bit red - What can i do?

Postby Keith Reeder » Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:04 pm

NNN635103620282925392 wrote:You know the light falloff slider. Is it the same thing as the Vignetting slider in Lightroom (not the post crop one)?

Yep, pretty much - the Lr "Lens Vignetting" slider and Capture One's "Light Falloff" tool are both intended to make up for lens aberrations.
Am i also right in believing that Capture One automatically under the hood knows which values to play with for any given lens at any given aperture etc., and sliding this slider to 100% is the same as totally & accurately removing the vignetting caused by the lens (but no over correction). In other words, if i don't like the natural vignetting that any lens will produce for any of my images can i just whack this slider up to 100% for every image?

Not sure about that, to be honest: Capture One's lens profiles might get into that level of analysis, but I've got precious little experience of working with light falloff in Capture One because - as a wildlife/sport photographer, using long lenses - I'm only really interested in the centre of the frame, and rarely even notice lens-produced vignetting.

Added: from here:

This effect is most common with wide-angle lenses that are used with a wide-open aperture. If you have a profile for your lens, set the amount to 100% to get a completely flat and even looking image. Otherwise, use a generic profile and manually set the desired amount with care.
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Re: My browns seem a bit red - What can i do?

Postby Ian3 » Sun Aug 24, 2014 10:13 pm

NNN635103620282925392 wrote:I've made 3 rough outputs from 3 different processing programs (note: all I've done is adjusted the white balance via a white card next to the dog). I've used Capture 1 Express 7, Capture NX-D (from Nikon), and Lightroom 4

I've uploaded them to my Microsoft OneDrive, if anyone wants to view them:

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=F587D73C02F4DBBB!9936&authkey=!AJLIYl43SmGvf2k&ithint=folder%2cjpg

Thanks

There are differences between the Capture NX-D version and the Lightroom version too, I'd say. Nice dog!

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