Panasonic GM1 support?

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Re: Panasonic GM1 support?

Postby SFA » Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:17 pm

Adam52 wrote:"""""The point is that you cannot expect every company to support every camera - unless they are of such a size and influence that they effectively drive the industry. You may not get your wish for a single product that supports all the file types that you are using at any particular moment."""

No but when a camera uses the same sensor and basic system as another in the range (in this case of the GM1 - the GX7) then it`s easy to add support, even if it`s only "preliminary" - often the only difference between RAW support is the camera info in the EXIF data - I found this out in the Capture one 5 days by hacking the RAWs to claim they were from a different camera , they worked perfectly - Prime example was when the D90 came out, if you hacked the file to say it was from a D300 , Voila - same with the D700 (to say it was a D3) ........... I`m sure that even if things weren`t perfect at all ISOs with the GM1 using the GX7 profile, it`d be 1000% better than using the compromised DNG file



It would be nice to think so and sometimes that may be the case. Sometimes the subtleties for full and accurate support may not be obvious - or even may be unimportant to the majority of users. But not always - or at least as a supplier you can't know until you have checked according to your normal processes.

So, what to do?

Make and asssumption that something you have will likely work and release that at the first opportunity - maybe with a caution that there is a chance that some things may not be 100%? Maybe ask for feedback from active users of the new device?

That seems like a reasonable idea to me and one that I would be comfortable with. After once I can access the files I can apply any camera profile I choose at my risk.

However I can just imagine a large number of early adopters leaping onto various forums claiming that there was something amiss and that the developer was doing a poor job/the wrong thing announcing any sort of support when clearly the release was "not fit for [their]purpose". Not me, and maybe not you, but some people would.

In my experience supporting business software mostly in a corporate environment where one is dealing with a relative small number of contacts on a project rather than an uncontrolled mass market trying to help by speeding up a normal production process by short cutting the conventions needs to be handled with care if at all. Sometimes it's a great result. At other times it can be a highly disruptive disaster and have long term consequences. Problems stemming from a perceived disaster are using bigger and longer lasting (in terms of reputation, deserved or otherwise) than the successes.

Sometime, frustrating and disappointing as it may seem, a policy of saying and doing nothing significant until one feels entirely prepared and ready it the right thing to do for the business when setting expectations.

For example one might ask today whether C1 V7 (or maybe V8?) will be compatible with Windows 9. It's a reasonable question and a reasonable assumption that it should indeed be the case. However nobody can be sure until it has been assessed.

Most people who are willing to take their own responsibility for what they discover if they try something in advance of "official" support would probably be accepting of some problems - but there will be some who will not and they then become a distracting and disruptive influence which is difficult to manage efficiently.

Maybe one option would be to enable a directly maintainable table of preferences for which profiles to use for any camera identity string. Used at the user's discretion alone. So one could point the D810 (for example) to use some other existing Nikon profile (or Canon, or whatever you choose) i order to be able to at least read the files in advance of an supported release becoming available. Alternatively just have a generic "Unsupported" identification that flags up a need for choosing a profile to be used according entirely to the user's selection and whatever that delivers.

Whether that might resolve the disappointments for early adopters of new cameras is open to question. An even bigger question might whether such a strategy would find wide acceptance and support in the uncontrollable wilderness of the Internet. Might it just leave people saying negative things anyway? Meanwhile the supplier may have lost some control over their business objectives anyway if even a small number of users turn out to be unreasonable about such an approach.


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Re: Panasonic GM1 support?

Postby mli20 » Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:47 pm

It is a paradox that so many will happily purchase a camera from a manufacturer that can't be bothered to make available an at least half decent raw converter that will see users through for a couple of months.

Does that mean they have never seen a proper raw file conversion from their new camera? If not, does that mean that tech specs rather than image quality is the deciding purchase factor?

I'm frustrated that there aren't profiles available in C1 for all my Nikkor lenses, but it is all too easy to say to others that what they must? do is easy.

The "must" part of this is debateable: P1 of course is a business, it's not Santa, is not morally obliged etc. etc.

Let's all take a breath.

Cheers,

Mogens
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Re: Panasonic GM1 support?

Postby Adam52 » Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:46 am

I think that camera support is a lot more important than lens support - if a lens isn`t supported it doesn`t mean that you have to use a different RAW converter to get the job done, you just miss out on a few niceties like exact distortion correction (7`s intelligent CA removal works very well), if the camera isn`t supported, you`re stuffed ...........

There is something weird going on with Panasonic in general regarding Capture one - for some bizarre reason files from supported cameras take considerably longer to develop than others with the same pixel count - in fact the 16Mp G3 (or GX7 etc) images (12 bit) take up to four times longer than 24Mp 14bit D7100 files or those from the 1DS-III, makes no sense . the problem isn`t there with Olympus, even for ones with Panasonic sensors ..........
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Re: Panasonic GM1 support?

Postby Christian Gruner » Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:27 pm

It's not wierd, really, it's plain simple.

Som manufacturers are better at providing cameras than others. That has a direct impact on implementation time (but is, of course, far from being the only factor).
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Re: Panasonic GM1 support?

Postby SFA » Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:30 am

Adam52 wrote:I think that camera support is a lot more important than lens support - if a lens isn`t supported it doesn`t mean that you have to use a different RAW converter to get the job done, you just miss out on a few niceties like exact distortion correction (7`s intelligent CA removal works very well), if the camera isn`t supported, you`re stuffed ...........

There is something weird going on with Panasonic in general regarding Capture one - for some bizarre reason files from supported cameras take considerably longer to develop than others with the same pixel count - in fact the 16Mp G3 (or GX7 etc) images (12 bit) take up to four times longer than 24Mp 14bit D7100 files or those from the 1DS-III, makes no sense . the problem isn`t there with Olympus, even for ones with Panasonic sensors ..........


Adam,

Just for clarification here, are you saying that the profiles for the files take longer to become available or that the files being processed in C1 take much longer to process? I assumed you meant the process times but having read Christian's comment I am no longer sure.


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Re: Panasonic GM1 support?

Postby SFA » Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:33 am

Christian Gruner wrote:It's not wierd, really, it's plain simple.

Som manufacturers are better at providing cameras than others. That has a direct impact on implementation time (but is, of course, far from being the only factor).


Christian,

Do you mean that obtaining equipment to test is a problem when talking to some manufacturers but not others? Or are you saying that there is something about the way the files are handles and (perhaps) documented that makes the task of creating and testing a good set of profiles more challenging?

(Or perhaps both?)

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Re: Panasonic GM1 support?

Postby Drew » Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:25 pm

As per our company policy and practice, we will not offer support for a Camera unless it is reviewed first hand, in-house (the exception being "Preliminary" support in some rare instances).
Sometimes Manufactures prefer to send us an example that they deem to be an acceptable unit for measure, sometimes they allow us to simply buy one from a store or borrow one from a rental company. Every agreement is different and, out of courtesy, the manufacture has the say in how this is done.

In this practice, some camera support comes easy and some does not.
And...to play devils advocate, from a manufactures perspective, would it not be advantageous to send a software company the more expensive model to support as appose to the less profitable model? (GX7 vs GM1?) :wink: :wink:
As a camera company is a business like any other, there is business strategy to many things that I think many users overlook. We, Phase One, are ALLOWED to support cameras. It is not a right, it is a privilege and sometimes the politics behind support are an unfortunate hardship for the users.
Kind Regards,
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Re: Panasonic GM1 support?

Postby Adam52 » Fri Aug 15, 2014 3:02 pm

""Just for clarification here, are you saying that the profiles for the files take longer to become available or that the files being processed in C1 take much longer to process? I assumed you meant the process times but having read Christian's comment I am no longer sure.""

As I said, Panasonic files for some bizarre reason take considerably longer to process than files with far higher pixel counts from other makers (a 16Mp G3 or even worse GX7 file can take 4X longer to process or view at pixel level than a 20Mp samsung, 21Mp 1DS3 or 24Mp D7100 file) , even cameras from Olympus with the same sensor take a fraction of the time - this wasn`t the case in Version 5 ...... Using DNG isn`t an option as the colour is miles off and the DNG converter now embeds unwanted lens corrections ...

I can understand a Fuji file taking a lot longer as they use a weird unorthodox filter array but the Panasonics use standard Bayer .

as for the support thing I wish there was an "open" option for the converter to see the RAWs from the unsupported models and give the user the option to choose a profile - for instance, there`s an Oly EPL6 - only sold in a couple of places , it`s the same as the EPL5 in every way bar some minor tweaks (Firmware mainly) .
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Re: Panasonic GM1 support?

Postby Moritz12 » Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:26 pm

Now that we have version 8 - still no Panasonic GM1 support.
Any chances of remediating this situation? My humble ask would be for PhaseOne to approach Panasonic and/or procure a camera through retail channels ($500?) to enable support.
The motivation is quite clear: Many photographers are carrying multiple bodies. If you're a m43 shooter, GM1 is the perfect choice for an "invisible" camera with reasonable IQ.
Without support in CaptureOne, consistency between pictures shot with another body (OM-D, GH, ...) is much harder to achieve and requires an "unnatural" workflow, using a secondary raw converter such as Lightroom, DXO, Silkypix, ... or one of the many others that do support GM1 (so much for the conspiracy theory that Panasonic doesn't want professional raw support for the GM1 to drive GX7 sales).
Thanks for your consideration.
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Re: Panasonic GM1 support?

Postby Adam52 » Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:57 pm

The GM1 and GX7 are totally different markets so I doubt there`s a conspiracy there . no one is going to opt for a camera 3X the size because of a RAW converter - they MAY buy an Olympus EPM however which is closer to the size.
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Re: Panasonic GM1 support?

Postby Moritz12 » Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:23 pm

To recap the current status:
1. We can use a hex editor to change "GM1" to "GX7" in the raw files
2. This tricks Capture One 7/8 into working perfectly fine with those raw files
3. PhaseOne officially refuses to enable (even if it would be "experimental") support for GM1 - not giving users a choice if they want to use the "untested" camera without resorting to the desperate and inconvenient .raw file patching strategy.

@PhaseOne - please reconsider !!!
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Re: Panasonic GM1 support?

Postby Moritz12 » Fri Sep 19, 2014 8:09 am

Come on P1, this batch file below works (on Windows), but why should I have to duplicate all my files? Your software is very good, so for now that's what I'm willing to do to benefit from its excellent quality -- but why ???

echo off
mkdir gx7
FOR /R %%a IN (*.rw2) DO copy "%%~a" .\gx7
cd gx7
c:\tools\gsar.exe -sPanasonic:x00DMC-GM1 -rPanasonic:x00DMC-GX7 -o *.rw2
exit
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Re: Panasonic GM1 support?

Postby Adam52 » Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:46 am

Back in the Capture one 5 days, you used to be able to hack a file from the software to change cameras using a hex editor - managed to get unsupported Panasonic and Nikon cameras working like that , classic was changing G1 to G2 , GF1 to GF5 D80 to D60 etc .. C1 radically changed the way it worked in version 6 so I doubt these kind of shenanegans would work now with V7 or 8 , though it may be worth investigation , you just need to find which file has the camera designation profiles in and look for the close one - say GX7 - and alter all the instances of GX7 to GM1, as I say it worked in the Version 5 days ..

for cams without the same number of characters in the name, there was a tool which ran under DOS and changed the EXIF data in whole folders of RAW files so that the D700 became the D3, the D90 became the D300 etc ..

All worked just fine .

DNG works with the GM1 but DNG converter thesedays does very unwelcome automatic lens corrections on conversion and it can`1 be disabled either in DNG converter or in Capture one (you can`t use the lens correction tool with DNGs full stop) also the DNG`s from converted GM1 RAWs have awful colour
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Re: Panasonic GM1 support?

Postby Moritz12 » Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:10 pm

I investigated possibilities to patch the executables; as you suspected, it's not a simple search and replace.
One downside of using GX7 profile with GM1 is that the borders are a bit cropped (at least compared to the same raw file in DXO). I don't know if that is a limitation that is caused by differences between GX7 and GM1 or by the different raw converters.
Otherwise, patching the RAW files works for the purpose of being able to open them in C1; however, I'm playing it safe and keeping the originals, effectively doubling my storage requirements.
Hoping for P1 to come around and help us out here.
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Re: Panasonic GM1 support?

Postby Adam52 » Sat Sep 20, 2014 9:48 am

That Batch file is great Moriz as it allows both the GM1 and GX7 to "exist" where hacking the DLL with the camera handlers in wouldn`t ....... GSAR is what worked with the D700 too if I remember rightly , I`ll have to learn how to set it up , the Samsung NX3000 has the same sensor as the older cams (1000, 300 etc) , the new Canon G7X and the panny FZ1000 have the Sony RX100 sensor (Could GSAR fix that ?) .. the RX100 Mk3 isn`t covered in C1-V7 but the Mk2 is etc .
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