Where to, now?

Discussions about Phase One Media Pro and Media Pro SE

Re: Where to, now?

Postby HansDeZomers » Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:13 pm

myotis wrote:
HansDeZomers wrote:Afaik, PhotoSupreme is the only 64 bit DAM for macOS


Neofinder is fully 64 bit.


I have never tried NeoFinder but afaik that's not a DAM but a file manager. NeoFinder compares with Bridge, not MediaPro.

But my main point was that it's inappropriate for NeoFinder to make a statement why MediaPro got discontinued. They can't know that, only assume. And assumptions is the devil of all ....
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Re: Where to, now?

Postby myotis » Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:55 pm

HansDeZomers wrote:
I have never tried NeoFinder but afaik that's not a DAM but a file manager. NeoFinder compares with Bridge, not MediaPro.

But my main point was that it's inappropriate for NeoFinder to make a statement why MediaPro got discontinued. They can't know that, only assume. And assumptions is the devil of all ....


I agree, its a questionable statement from Neofinder, but why do you think Neofinder isn't a DAM, it has a long history as a cataloguing tool, and not as a file manager.

I agree that lots of programs bandied about as because DAMs aren't (e.g. Photo Mechanic), because for me a DAM needs to be rooted in a proper database to give it security and speed. I would also argue it needs to meet the full "Digital Asset" label and also catalogue PDFs, Word, as well as photographic files.

I would be interested in why you consider it isn't a DAM. For you, what makes a DAM a DAM.

Cheers,

Graham
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Re: Where to, now?

Postby HansDeZomers » Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:10 pm

myotis wrote:I would be interested in why you consider it isn't a DAM. For you, what makes a DAM a DAM.


The short answer:
A DAM is a DAM if it can work without the file system.

The extended answer: if you disconnect the file system, you can still use the DAM. That means that for DAM, the database is the leading, whereas for a File Manager the file system is leading.That is why you *always* have to import folders to the DAM.

Does that mean that a File Manager (FM) doesn't have a database? No, a FM can also use a database, but the use of the database for the FM is different: mostly there to cache information in order for the FM to perform better. That is what Bridge does for instance.

The database in a DAM is the primary source for the software. Only when you need direct file access then the file system is needed, like writing metadata to the file, or downsizing the original file, only then the file system is needed. So with DAM you could manage your complete archive without the file system, then write to the files whenever needed.

Can a file manager perform management tasks? Sure. Can a FM replace a DAM: never. Can a DAM replace a FM: yes. Do you need DAM or is a FM sufficient? I can't answer that for you.
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Re: Where to, now?

Postby C-F » Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:19 pm

HansDeZomers wrote:
myotis wrote:I would be interested in why you consider it isn't a DAM. For you, what makes a DAM a DAM.


The short answer:
A DAM is a DAM if it can work without the file system.

The extended answer: if you disconnect the file system, you can still use the DAM. That means that for DAM, the database is the leading, whereas for a File Manager the file system is leading.That is why you *always* have to import folders to the DAM.

Does that mean that a File Manager (FM) doesn't have a database? No, a FM can also use a database, but the use of the database for the FM is different: mostly there to cache information in order for the FM to perform better. That is what Bridge does for instance.

The database in a DAM is the primary source for the software. Only when you need direct file access then the file system is needed, like writing metadata to the file, or downsizing the original file, only then the file system is needed. So with DAM you could manage your complete archive without the file system, then write to the files whenever needed.


EXACTLY,

that is why NeoFinder is indeed a DAM - just like MP you have to first tell it what to catalog before you can use it on/off line...

/edit It does not 'compare to MP' because it does not have a lot of the 'abilities' that MP has - e.g. sent an email with attached images, etc.
However it does display Affinity files in contrast to MP - so it is a DAM, just a different scope - imho /edit
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Re: Where to, now?

Postby HansDeZomers » Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:35 pm

I stand corrected then. As mentioned: I've never used NeoFinder.
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Re: Where to, now?

Postby myotis » Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:01 pm

[quote="HansDeZomers"
The short answer:
A DAM is a DAM if it can work without the file system.
[/quote]

Well, as has been explained in another post, the reasons you give for a DAM being a DAM were the reasons I considered Neofinder to be a DAM, that was what I meant by being based on a database backend.

And no, a file manager does not meet my needs, hence I have been using Media Pro (since the iView days) but have been trialing Neofinder (I didn't like Photo Supreme) as I reckoned the writing was on the wall for Media Pro.

However, as a post in the Photo Mechanic forum yesterday promised the DAM version of PM before the end of the year "even if it kills us" I will certainly be looking at what it has to offer.

Cheers,

Graham
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Re: Where to, now?

Postby syncrasy » Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:08 pm

At this point I am keeping my eye on both Photo Mechanic 6 (it better not kill the developers!) and NeoFinder.

Yes, (I think) Neofinder is a DAM, if a basic one. I have been corresponding with the developer (I sent him my "list") and he appears to be very interested. After all, the company did post a direct solicitation to Media Pro refugees on its web site.

As an aside, the concept of "DAM" always gets used loosely. I found this web page last night:

https://www.pdnonline.com/gear/software/11-file-friendly-digital-asset-managers/

It includes Photo Mechanic 5 and Adobe Bridge (not DAMs). Phase One Media Pro is noted for its ability to manage images from Capture One :)
— Mark
Camera & Computer: Nikon D500, D7100 • Mac Pro (mid 2010), various OSs
DAM: Media Pro SE
Image Editors: Nikon Capture NX 2, NX-D • Photoshop CS6

(as of 2018)
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Re: Where to, now?

Postby myotis » Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:51 pm

syncrasy wrote:At this point I am keeping my eye on both Photo Mechanic 6 (it better not kill the developers!) and NeoFinder.

Yes, (I think) Neofinder is a DAM, if a basic one. I have been corresponding with the developer (I sent him my "list") and he appears to be very interested. After all, the company did post a direct solicitation to Media Pro refugees on its web site.

As an aside, the concept of "DAM" always gets used loosely. I found this web page last night:

https://www.pdnonline.com/gear/software/11-file-friendly-digital-asset-managers/

It includes Photo Mechanic 5 and Adobe Bridge (not DAMs). Phase One Media Pro is noted for its ability to manage images from Capture One :)


The Neofinder developer is very responsive, and although its more powerful than it first appears, it doesn't have the polish of Media Pro.

As I already make a lot of use of PM5, PM6 will almost certainly be heading my way, when its released, but I will probably hang onto Neofinder for it's fuller DAM features. I suspect PM6 will be photo-centric.

And yes, its seems a bad idea to kill the PM6 developers, as that won't leave anyone to support the new program :-)

Cheers,
Graham
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Re: Where to, now?

Postby C-F » Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:54 pm

Well, call me 'crazy' but the day of trial is fast approaching, lol...

- I used the recent events as an 'excuse' to upgrade my current MacBook Pro (mid 15) with a rather expensive internal ssd from OWC - Aura Pro X, 2TB; the factory 500GB ssd will be repurposed as an external HD (after testing I will decide on its usage ;-))

- after back up of my current system, I will install the new hardware and do a 'clean' install of High Sierra (the 'do not forget' list of such undertaking is long and distinguished - eg reinstall all my image related software, and a manually assembled test folder with subfolders with all my currently used image file formats in total I am thinking 3-5k images (a copy of those of course))

- Once all the above run stable and is up to date, I will download and install - Parallels 14 latest version (trial), Windows10, and set up the virtual workspace (of course with little idea of what I am doing...) but they make it look easy on their webpages...

- Lastly download and install iMatch 2018 free trial - and pray...lol
- notepad for # oh s***t count already in place!

Well, that is my current plan, if there is any interest in my unscientific results let me know

Any 'constructive' comments and helpful thoughts are welcome (as in 'don't forget to...' or 'make sure you try..' etc.

- Thanks!
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Re: Where to, now?

Postby IanL » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:01 pm

syncrasy wrote:
  1. Do Phase One’s core/most profitable customers (presumably commercial studio photographers using medium format cameras tethered to laptops running CO in Session mode) really want a better catalog?
  2. Is there a technical roadblock that prevents Phase One from incorporating certain functions/features of Media Pro?
  3. Given the history (“sunk investment”) of developing the Sessions/Catalog paradigm, is there a psychological bias that prevents Phase One designers from acknowledging the benefits of a neutral database paradigm (i.e., an archival tool not geared to the workflow of a commercial/assignment photographer)?
  4. If we Media Pro users are waiting for a future version of Capture One that will one day be comparable to Media Pro, are we waiting in vain?


1. I am not sure. Some of them might. There are a bunch of new customers that don't work in a studio and don't need tethering - I count my self there. Will we be seen as core at some point? Not sure. I hope our needs get put on the same level - at the very least more non medium format non studio users have purchased the product recently. I have no idea what kind of numbers we are. I certainly *do* want a better catalogue :)

2. I am certain there is no technical roadblock. There is time and development effort and balancing priorities. Those will govern what features get added in future versions.

3. Interesting. I don't really know but my guess would by yes :) I think the message has been solidly sent - they have no interest in a neutral archival tool - hence the discontinuation of MP.

4. I think that depends on what you mean by comparable. I personally doubt that C1 will ever be a neutral DAM product. I also personally don't care that it is not. I do care about having a more robust, performant and feature-full DAM capabilities added to my RAW converter :D

In other words I will very very happy if even some of the DAM features of MP are added to the C1 catalogue in terms of managing files that the C1 RAW converter manages. I do recognize that others will not.

syncrasy wrote:My conclusion:
With the discontinuation of Media Pro, Phase One is making it clear that the type of photographer who wants only a DAM is not Phase One's target customer (and never was). I predict photographers who valued iView/Media Pro's cataloguing paradigm (workflow neutral, raw editor agnostic) and who regard their catalog as "home base" for much of their work, will never be satisfied with Capture One. (Not a particularly revelatory conclusion, as I've been saying some version of this since 2011, but I thought it worth restating/documenting since some change in my software is now closer to reality.)


Yeah, I think you are correct.

I also think that many people like me that don't need a neutral DAM application may very well be very happy with C1 catalogues some day. I certainly hope so - not quite there yet.

For the record when I came here I was attracted to a combined MP C1 work flow since MP seemed like a better DAM the LR and C1 a better RAW converter. That is the path I wanted to take. I quickly grew concerned that MP was not going to be part of Phase One's future. I was disappointed but not enough to prevent me from switching to C1.
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Re: Where to, now?

Postby HansDeZomers » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:02 pm

myotis wrote:I didn't like Photo Supreme


That's unfortunate. I've switched away from iView shortly after Microsoft acquired it. The concept in Photo Supreme is different, almost opposite, from that in iView/MediaPro. That made it a culture shock at first. Once you've used Photo Supreme for a few weeks you'll see where its strengths are.

Here's a good read. A few years old article, but still valid.
https://www.bkwinephotography.com/techn ... am-system/

Photo Mechanic is reknown for their good software and you can expect good things. But fact is that there is currently no PM6 and once released I expect the DAM features to be basic. It will take them years to get it to the level of MediaPro/PhotoSupreme/iMatch/Daminion.
Today I see only these products as full fledged DAM software products (for the home/amateur/professional photographer).
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Re: Where to, now?

Postby HansDeZomers » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:10 pm

C-F wrote:- Lastly download and install iMatch 2018 free trial - and pray...lol
- notepad for # oh s***t count already in place!


Sounds like a good plan. Whichever DAM product you're going to try, give each at least 2 to 4 weeks of thorough testing. Don't test different DAMs at the same time. Each of these full fledged DAM products use their own concepts and require quite some time to get the hang of it.
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Re: Where to, now?

Postby syncrasy » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:14 pm

syncrasy wrote:Of course, for Media Pro users, Capture One 11 is currently not a comparable replacement, so let's hope those discount codes will still be valid when/if Capture One actually has the features we need.


I just received word that my (small) Media Pro refugee's Capture One discount code is valid only for CO11. Considering all the evidence and PO's focus, I'm not inclined to buy CO11 now and hope PO releases a version of CO that has the DAM features I need. Oh well.

Back to Neofinder vs Photo Supreme vs Photo Mechanic 6!
— Mark
Camera & Computer: Nikon D500, D7100 • Mac Pro (mid 2010), various OSs
DAM: Media Pro SE
Image Editors: Nikon Capture NX 2, NX-D • Photoshop CS6

(as of 2018)
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Re: Where to, now?

Postby syncrasy » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:40 pm

HansDeZomers wrote:Photo Mechanic is reknown for their good software and you can expect good things. But fact is that there is currently no PM6 and once released I expect the DAM features to be basic. It will take them years to get it to the level of MediaPro/PhotoSupreme/iMatch/Daminion . . .


But Photo Mechanic has been "working on" their catalog for at least 10 years :wink:

(That's intended to be a joke based on the famous "PM catalog" rumors since 2006. I too expect the PM catalog will be basic, but perhaps they actually have been watching and learning over the years and will surprise us.)
— Mark
Camera & Computer: Nikon D500, D7100 • Mac Pro (mid 2010), various OSs
DAM: Media Pro SE
Image Editors: Nikon Capture NX 2, NX-D • Photoshop CS6

(as of 2018)
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Re: Where to, now?

Postby OddS » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:42 pm

myotis wrote:...I have been using Media Pro (since the iView days) but have been trialing Neofinder (I didn't like Photo Supreme) as I reckoned the writing was on the wall for Media Pro.

However, as a post in the Photo Mechanic forum yesterday promised the DAM version of PM before the end of the year "even if it kills us" I will certainly be looking at what it has to offer.


I wonder why single user fotostation ( https://shop.fotoware.com/collections/s ... r-products ) does not get more attention.It could be because the company FotoWare is known for quite a bit more expensive enterprise client/server type DAM.
--
Odd S.
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