Where to, now?

Discussions about Phase One Media Pro and Media Pro SE

Re: Where to, now?

Postby IanL » Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:33 pm

Ian3 wrote:I suppose that one of the factors in this is to see whether C1 v12 when it comes has enhanced DAM capabilities or performance. I have not until now been a catalog user in C1 (working only in sessions) but those who are seem to say that the last few versions have all improved in that respect. It would be nice to have reassurance or information from Phase One about that at the same time as the announcement about MP, but I know they have a policy of never making those kinds of announcements in advance, which is somewhat understandable.


Usually I would totally agree however in this case they announced that a product has been discontinued without also announcing enhancements that would bring their existing one even close to par with the discontinued product. The point being, if they want to stay quite about C1 feature development then they should have waited until a release of C1 that had catalogue features / performance that could at least be argued were equivalent to MP OR waited to discontinue MP until after the said version of C1 was released.

Ian3 wrote:If it turns out that much of the functionality we know and love from MP appears in C1 we will probably be happy.


That certainly would be nice. But someone published a list of features they needed in C1 and non of them were things that I think are a priority for C1. So, I feel certain that few if anyone would be totally satisfied. :)

I do hope that progress is made. Actually since there has been no announcement at all about future C1 features I actually hope that version 12 actually focuses on catalogue features.
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Re: Where to, now?

Postby RobiWan » Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:11 pm

C-F wrote:automatic read/write - not true according to their documentation and tutorial videos...


Than ask and talk with developer - is not recommended.
Remove XMP files and try to create they from IMatch database
Delete IMatch database and try to recreate from XMP files
Import new Images with XMP files - why wont IMatch rewrite all XMP files?

IMatch is very powerful software with many edges are some NoGo for me. Maybe I just couldn't handle it. But the developer couldn't explain anything plausible to me. Always came - C1 is crap, MP is crap, PSU is crap. Everything I do is great. And even when I found BUG in Exiftool, C1 was crap.

But - try and buy it and be happy with it - really.
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Re: Where to, now?

Postby C-F » Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:26 pm

RobiWan wrote:
C-F wrote:automatic read/write - not true according to their documentation and tutorial videos...


Than ask and talk with developer - is not recommended.
Remove XMP files and try to create they from IMatch database
Delete IMatch database and try to recreate from XMP files
Import new Images with XMP files - why wont IMatch rewrite all XMP files?

IMatch is very powerful software with many edges are some NoGo for me. Maybe I just couldn't handle it. But the developer couldn't explain anything plausible to me. Always came - C1 is crap, MP is crap, PSU is crap. Everything I do is great. And even when I found BUG in Exiftool, C1 was crap.

But - try and buy it and be happy with it - really.


Lol,
I DID 'talk' (email) to Mario and frankly he was very honest and upfront about my questions and concerns AND less than 12hrs in response time!

Funny thing is, what you describe as your experience with them was exactly my experience with Herb from PSU...

/sarcasm on: Maybe it is a 'German attitude thing' /sarcasm off - however, the nice part is, we all have our bucket of experiences and are able to share them in a situation that calls for some profound, future oriented decision making in our current state of virtual asset management.

ps, if I recall correctly, you yourself stated that C1 cataloging was completely unsuitable to your needs hence made you switch to PSU... - glad to hear that about ¾ of a year later it seems to fit your needs which puts you ahead of us that are still 'struggling' of what and how to do...
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Re: Where to, now?

Postby C-F » Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:59 pm

IanL wrote,
That certainly would be nice. But someone published a list of features they needed in C1 and non of them were things that I think are a priority for C1. So, I feel certain that few if anyone would be totally satisfied. :)

I do hope that progress is made. Actually since there has been no announcement at all about future C1 features I actually hope that version 12 actually focuses on catalogue features.



Exactly my thoughts, and to take it a step further, that also implies that for the 'classic' C1 user (sessions, tethering, RAW converter) it will be an upgrade to pass as long as there is no change in ones respective photographic hardware needing the possible added support currently not in C1....
This is all speculation though and we will have to wait and see what actually will happen
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Re: Where to, now?

Postby MJCPEREIRA » Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:18 pm

Ian 3

I don't understand how you think the argument is ill-founded. I paid 230€ only in last Februay 2017. If Phase One was then finantially wise to charge for another update, then this update should have lasted much more than 1 year and a half.

But I'm sure by February 2017, they new it wouldn't last which, if they were morally able, should be enough for them not to charge for another Update which, let me also remind, didn't even work in the new MacOSes...

Instead, it forced a lot of users to stick to older MacOSes. Ian, either you have a product really working or you shouldn't be charging for it... and now they advise a migration to CO and they charge even more for it ???

My friend, are talking serious ?? Hope not :)))
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Re: Where to, now?

Postby Ian3 » Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:27 pm

Well good luck in court. I don’t think you would succeed!

Ian
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Re: Where to, now?

Postby syncrasy » Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:48 pm

I agree with Ian3 that it would be hard to make a legal case, which is why my extended argument on the previous page was exclusively a moral argument. I think the moral argument is strong, and as evidence I point to Phase One's response to our support tickets: they are now offering to provide discount coupons to customers to apply to Capture One. They are doing so on a case by case basis, which is reasonable (larger discounts for customers who paid full price for MP, smaller discounts for legacy iView/EM customers who paid less to get into the Media Pro system). Not free licenses, but better than nothing, and I think it's a recognition of the moral argument.

Of course, for Media Pro users, Capture One 11 is currently not a comparable replacement, so let's hope those discount codes will still be valid when/if Capture One actually has the features we need.
— Mark
Camera & Computer: Nikon D500, D7100 • Mac Pro (mid 2010), various OSs
DAM: Media Pro SE
Image Editors: Nikon Capture NX 2, NX-D • Photoshop CS6

(as of 2018)
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Re: Where to, now?

Postby syncrasy » Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:31 pm

Reality check …

Here was Phase One’s original “plan” for Media Pro/DAM:

Phase One in 2012 wrote:Will Media Pro be integrated with Capture One?
Phase One’s initial focus has been to create new workflow benefits to photographers when they use Media Pro and Capture One together.

It is Phase One’s general policy not to comment on future releases. However, customers can expect that Phase One will continue to invest in professional photo management and image editing software and make the combined toolset the most effective choice for photographers who need to manage very large, high quality image files and collections in a fast and efficient photography workflow.

Capture One provides state-of-the-art photo editing tools that will assist photographers in achieving the perfect look for every image. Media Pro complements Capture One with its professional photo management capabilities.


They didn’t answer “no” to the question, so even then I suspected Media Pro wasn’t part of Phase One's long-term vision. But eight years later what does Phase One have to show for its “invest[ment] in professional photo management… software”? It seems even Capture One users (who never used MP) find CO’s catalog either lacking or not of interest (e.g., “I use only Sessions, not the catalog.”).

Questions I'm pondering:

  1. Do Phase One’s core/most profitable customers (presumably commercial studio photographers using medium format cameras tethered to laptops running CO in Session mode) really want a better catalog?
  2. Is there a technical roadblock that prevents Phase One from incorporating certain functions/features of Media Pro?
  3. Given the history (“sunk investment”) of developing the Sessions/Catalog paradigm, is there a psychological bias that prevents Phase One designers from acknowledging the benefits of a neutral database paradigm (i.e., an archival tool not geared to the workflow of a commercial/assignment photographer)?
  4. If we Media Pro users are waiting for a future version of Capture One that will one day be comparable to Media Pro, are we waiting in vain?

My conclusion:
With the discontinuation of Media Pro, Phase One is making it clear that the type of photographer who wants only a DAM is not Phase One's target customer (and never was). I predict photographers who valued iView/Media Pro's cataloguing paradigm (workflow neutral, raw editor agnostic) and who regard their catalog as "home base" for much of their work, will never be satisfied with Capture One. (Not a particularly revelatory conclusion, as I've been saying some version of this since 2011, but I thought it worth restating/documenting since some change in my software is now closer to reality.)
— Mark
Camera & Computer: Nikon D500, D7100 • Mac Pro (mid 2010), various OSs
DAM: Media Pro SE
Image Editors: Nikon Capture NX 2, NX-D • Photoshop CS6

(as of 2018)
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Re: Where to, now?

Postby roberte » Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:53 am

Mark I think you're right that the typical Capture One user cares less about DAM and more about image quality and tethered capture. But then so do many photographers.

All-in-one image processor/DAM programs are the trend. Phase One had to add DAM to Capture One because Lightroom and Aperture had it. They acquired Expression Media rather than develop a DAM module from scratch. It proved more difficult than expected to add Expression Media so they kept it and sessions as a workaround. We're lucky Media Pro lasted 8 years.
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Re: Where to, now?

Postby syncrasy » Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:14 am

roberte wrote:Mark I think you're right that the typical Capture One user cares less about DAM and more about image quality and tethered capture. But then so do many photographers.

All-in-one image processor/DAM programs are the trend. Phase One had to add DAM to Capture One because Lightroom and Aperture had it. They acquired Expression Media rather than develop a DAM module from scratch. It proved more difficult than expected to add Expression Media so they kept it and sessions as a workaround. We're lucky Media Pro lasted 8 years.


Yes, a much simpler explanation. That was also my working assumption all these years, but I wondered if PO considered the integration a success based on their core users' needs/expectations.
Last edited by syncrasy on Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
— Mark
Camera & Computer: Nikon D500, D7100 • Mac Pro (mid 2010), various OSs
DAM: Media Pro SE
Image Editors: Nikon Capture NX 2, NX-D • Photoshop CS6

(as of 2018)
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Re: Where to, now?

Postby Ian3 » Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:35 am

On the site for NeoFinder, which was suggested in the forum as an alternative to MP, they suggested that part of the problem was that MP's code is old-fashioned and clunky, and 32-bit, so much so that it would have been no easy task to convert it into an up-to-date 64-bit app.

With the advent of 64bit only macOS versions, the very old code base of Media Pro could no longer be maintained nor updated. This is in stark contrast to NeoFinder, for example, whose code base has been continuously updated, rewritten, and modernized in the last 22 years, to always be on level with all new macOS updates and feature improvements.

iView Media Pro has a long and colorful history, but the core code base was never rewritten or properly updated, and was ageing rapidly. Previous owners like Microsoft simply added some visual changes to the software, and charged for feature-free updates.


I don't know enough about coding to assess the truth of that, but I suppose that there may be something in it.

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Re: Where to, now?

Postby myotis » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:59 am

[quote="Ian3"
I don't know enough about coding to assess the truth of that, but I suppose that there may be something in it.
[/quote]

It may be worth glancing through this wikipedia article on the Carbon API framework that Media Pro uses (or so I am told) and the modern Cocoa API framework that replaced it in 2007.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_(API).

Updating Media Pro, would appear to be a massive job, (other developers, such as Neofinder have commented on how big a job it was for them to rewrite their programs for Cocoa) and I guess Phase One *may* have decided its not going to give them the return they need.

Cheers,

Graham
Last edited by myotis on Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where to, now?

Postby HansDeZomers » Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:04 am

Ian3 wrote:I don't know enough about coding to assess the truth of that, but I suppose that there may be something in it.

While that's probably true, I find it concerning that NeoFinder makes such a statement. Only PhaseOne can make such a statement, and NeoFinder can only assume that that is the reason.

Going forward you should make sure that software that you pick today to run on Mac is 64 bit. This because from Mojave onward Apple requires 64 bit software. In High Sierra you're warned once when starting a 32 bit software, in Mojave you should still be able to manually accept 32 bit software to run, but the next macOS version will no longer run 32 bit software.
https://9to5mac.com/2018/06/05/macos-mo ... t-support/

Afaik, PhotoSupreme is the only 64 bit DAM for macOS
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Re: Where to, now?

Postby Ian3 » Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:37 am

I'm in no way advocating for NeoFinder, but their website does say that it is fully 64 bit.

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Re: Where to, now?

Postby myotis » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:45 pm

HansDeZomers wrote:Afaik, PhotoSupreme is the only 64 bit DAM for macOS


Neofinder is fully 64 bit.

Cheers,

Graham
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