Minimum equipment for 1/1600 sync

Discussions regarding Phase One 645 DF / DF+ and Mamiya 645 DF / DF+
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Minimum equipment for 1/1600 sync

Postby PedroMen » Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:01 pm

Hello everyone!
I'm new to the forum and Phase One website :)

I'm looking for a used Phase One system, and as I take a lot of photos outside the the possibility of using a high sync speed is very important to me. I don't want to put any ND glass in front of such fine lenses (well, maybe a polarizer if needed) and my question is direct:
What is the minimum equipment in order to get 1/1600 sync speed?

I know that I need LS lenses, but what about body and back?
And do all strobes (and radio transmitters) sync at that speed?

Thanks in advance,
Pedro.
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Re: Minimum equipment for 1/1600 sync

Postby travelboy » Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:46 am

See data sheets for the backs. The P+ sync at 1/800 or 1/1600 depending on the model. Elinchrom Skyport or Profoto Air work fine at 1/1600. Cable always works.
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Re: Minimum equipment for 1/1600 sync

Postby Paul_Steunebrink » Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:33 am

Add to list of requirements: V-Grip Air and the 645DF or DF+ (not sure it works with 645AF; I understand you are looking buying second hand)
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Re: Minimum equipment for 1/1600 sync

Postby travelboy » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:31 pm

Elinchrom Skyport Speed trigger works at 1/1600 on the hotshoe (without the V-Grip). Hensel doesn't.
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Re: Minimum equipment for 1/1600 sync

Postby FredBGG » Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:35 am

You do not have to have the V-grip.

There are also other cameras and ways for achieving high speed sync.

See this thread:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=71679.0
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Re: Minimum equipment for 1/1600 sync

Postby Drew » Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:51 pm

If you would like your Phase One Camera to sync at 1/1600th you will need;
-LS Lens
-DF or DF+ body
-P40+, P65+ (*with "Extended" LS Support) or an IQ unit

Beyond that the speed depends on your lights. They need a minimum flash duration and a way to sync it with the camera, typically a hard sync (cable from the pack to camera body) will work but there are some wireless options available. Elinchrom or, of course, the Profoto air which we integrate into our V-Grip.

The link referenced by Fred is also an option but it is an operation on the Lighting side. The camera is not doing anything aside from shooting at a High Shutter speed, the lights do all the work. This method does work but depending on your application may not be a viable option as the use of a Focal Plane shutter (again depending on application) can still distort the image.
Last edited by Drew on Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: * the first builds of P40+ and P65+ did not have this high sync ability. Later versions came with the hardware change to allow this and the backs "About" screen shows the capabilities.
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Re: Minimum equipment for 1/1600 sync

Postby FredBGG » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:55 pm

Drew wrote:If you would like your Phase One Camera to sync at 1/1600th you will need;
-LS Lens
-DF or DF+ body
-P40+, P65+ (*with "Extended" LS Support) or an IQ unit



Don't the Credo backs also work?
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Re: Minimum equipment for 1/1600 sync

Postby FredBGG » Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:06 pm

Drew wrote:The link referenced by Fred is also an option but it is an operation on the Lighting side. The camera is not doing anything aside from shooting at a High Shutter speed, the lights do all the work. This method does work but depending on your application may not be a viable option as the use of a Focal Plane shutter (again depending on application) can still distort the image.


The lights are not doing all the work. The DSLR has a special timing option that enables flash sync with speeds of as high as 1/8000th. The camera is working with the flash in more ways that the DF leaf shutter system.

The DF does a good job, but is limited to 1/1600th of a second and in direct sunlight this could be very limiting if the photographer wants to shoot wide open for shallow depth of field.
and with any flash by using a global shutter that is electronic and not by using a global shutter that isn't mechanical at all.
The Fuji x100 sync with any flash at 1/4000th.

The video that Phase One featured claims that high speed flash with studio strobes is impossible with a DSLR. The problem is that the photographer in the video was not using the right technique.

http://youtu.be/WjIAd1KcT4E
Last edited by FredBGG on Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Minimum equipment for 1/1600 sync

Postby FredBGG » Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:20 pm

Drew wrote:This method does work but depending on your application may not be a viable option as the use of a Focal Plane shutter (again depending on application) can still distort the image.


Regarding this statement of distortion... it needs to be explained in a bit more detail.

When a DSLR is used to sync at high speeds, even as high as 1/8000th the overall exposure of the sensor takes under 1/320th. It takes 1/320th when the camera is set to 1/320th and it takes progressively a bit less as you increase the speed.
The first curtain opens and before it is fully open the second curtain starts to shut. In this manner the shutter only opens slightly and the slit between the curtains scans across the sensor effectively exposing all areas of the sensor for 1/8000th (when set at 1/8000th)

Due to the speed of the scan made by the shutter there a very small amount of distortion possible, but it would need to be a very very fast motion. Like taking a photograph of an airplane prop spinning at high speed. You will not see any distortion in models jumping around or motocross bikes flying through the air.
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Re: Minimum equipment for 1/1600 sync

Postby FredBGG » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:47 am

So I can give this some more accurate numbers I did a test with the D800 and Elinchrom strobes.
Here is the setup
Flash Elinchrom 6,000 w/s pack.
Elinchrom X 6000 N double tube flash head.
SB-910 set to manual at 1/128th power covered just on the camera to activate Auto FP mode.
Nikon D800 connected via a flash sync cable to the Elinchrom flash pack.

The result is even exposure over the full frame at all flash pack power setting with no color shift.
I tested all shutter speeds from 1/320 all the way to 1/8000th
Flash pack power setting from 1/16th to full power.
To get an idea of flexibility with the head at 20ft I could shoot correct exposure at 1/1600th at f16 all the way to 1/8000th at f1.4
The fact that the focal plane shutter "wastes" flash power at high sync speeds actually gives range than working with the Phase One.
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Re: Minimum equipment for 1/1600 sync

Postby Ulf » Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:05 pm

Fred, keep in mind that this is a 645DF/DF+ forum and not a Nikon D800 forum.
Please stick to topic and forum rules.

Just a friendly reminder.
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Re: Minimum equipment for 1/1600 sync

Postby FredBGG » Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:13 am

In light of the title:

"Minimum equipment for 1/1600 sync" and that he is looking to buy used gear (hence on a budget) I think it is worthwhile
for Pedro to know that there are more ways than one to shoot high speed sync.

I posted some numbers in reply to Drew's reply.

Both systems have their pro's and cons.

The Phase one system is nice and clean. The one I described is too and in some situations is more flexible, such as
very shallow depth of field.

Best would be to have both.

In light of having both systems One DF and one D800 for example. Would it be possible to use a PocketWizard TT1 and a PocketWizard PowerST4 with the DF. The TT1 has very fast connection and would let the photographer control power setting from the camera. It would be nice with the DF and would also support the photographers TTL functions with the TT1. Best of both worlds plus remote power control from the cameras.(with the AC3 ZoneController that pops onto the camera's hotshoe)
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Re: Minimum equipment for 1/1600 sync

Postby PedroMen » Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:54 pm

Hello again! Thank you everyone for the answers!

I know there are other cameras and methods for doing high speed sync. I've been doing it with a Canon 5D, 580EX II and Radio Poppers. The disappointment is that the flash power really drops with exposure time (example: flash power at 1/200 > 1/2000 > 1/8000)
I think it's because in this mode the flashes don't really flash just one burst of light, they emulate continuous light doing multiple short light pulses.
I could use more flashes to overcome that power loss, say 4 flashes, but the price would go up and in the end the flash power would still be nothing comparable to, lets say, an Einstein 640Ws.


With my Fuji X100 I was in heaven in this matter! I could sync at 1/4000 f/2 with no power loss!! Why? Leaf shutter lens!! The problem: only 35mm eq. lens and APS-C size sensor (Sony RX1 is already out and has Full Frame sensor size! But the same 35mm eq lens. Oh, and the unreal high price!).


So, Phase One will get me to 1/1600, greater dynamic range, bigger files and more sharpness! Great, but I need:
- Phase One 645DF (or 645DF+)
- Leaf Shutter lens
- (Phase One) digital back are capable of registering it, namely the IQs, P40+ or P65+ (with "Extended" LS Support).
- An optional Vgrip for profoto trigger (by the way, is there a cheaper grip without the profoto trigger, just to hold better the camera and shoot vertically?)


So, for now I can buy a second hand 645DF and a 110mm f/2.8 LS and for sure I'm not buying one of those backs (mentioned above) as they are too expensive for me now.
But, I can afford a second hand Phase One P20 (it has a square format).

1) I guess this P20 will not give 1/1600s but how fast can it register, 1/800?
2) And do I need an adapter to mount it on the 645DF?
3) Will it register the full image seen by the viewfinder? I mean, will a 110mm still be a 110mm?
4) Since it's a square format, does it need some kind of a mask for 6 x4.5 format?


Thanks again for the answers and Happy new Year!
Pedro
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Re: Minimum equipment for 1/1600 sync

Postby Jon » Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:08 pm

1. P20 will match the performance of the lens... which is generally 1/800s.
2. No adapter, just get the back in a Mamiya or Phase One mount
3. It is a cropped sensor so you lose a bit on the top and more on the sides.
4. Insert masks are available.
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Re: Minimum equipment for 1/1600 sync

Postby Digital Transitions, Doug » Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:58 pm

To visualize what a certain lens will look like with a particular digital back I recommend our (Digital Transitions) free visualizer tool:
http://www.digitaltransitions.com/visua ... lizer.html
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