Camera Profile and output profiles all screwed up. ProPhoto?

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Camera Profile and output profiles all screwed up. ProPhoto?

Postby fuzzybabybunny » Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:25 am

I have a Canon 30D and Vista x64, running Capture One 4.

I shoot in RAW.

My ICC profile in C1 is Generic (30D)

My Metadata for the RAW file shows that it has a color space of sRGB..... what???

I installed the ProPhotoRGB profile to the C1 profiles folder, and I output as 16-bit TIF using ProPhotoRGB.

When I right click the TIF file in Windows Explorer and look at properties, it says the color space is sRGB, not ProPhotoRGB. What the hell is going on? I need my ProPhotoRGB.
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Postby Paul_Steunebrink » Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:10 am

Did you already update to CO 4.0.1? I remember a thread related to ProphotoRGB and this update.

Neglect any reference to color space in raw files. Not relevant (it does most of the time show the camera setting at time of exposure; but again, not relevant).
Best regards,
Paul E. Steunebrink, Image Alchemist (website All about Capture One), Capture One trainer
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Postby Harry12 » Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:07 pm

Paul Steunebrink wrote:...Neglect any reference to color space in raw files. Not relevant (it does most of the time show the camera setting at time of exposure; but again, not relevant).


Paul, what do you mean by this? Why is colour space not relevant? I don't understand this comment because for me colour space is very important.

Fuzzybabybunney, choose your exported, embedded colour space from Capture One V4's Output (Process Recipe) > ICC Profile dropdown menu. Select ProPhoto RGB there and export as TIF or JPG. Before you open the exported file in Photoshop, ensure that Photoshop's Colour Settings are set to warn you of profile mismatches and to preserve embedded profiles. In Photoshop: Edit > Color Settings > Color Management Policies > RGB > Preserve Embedded Profiles.

After that, your ProPhoto ICC embedded in your TIF or JPG exported from C1 should still be there in Photoshop or any where else you put that image.

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Postby thowi » Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:39 pm

Xaphs wrote:Why is colour space not relevant? I don't understand this comment because for me colour space is very important.
Yes, but one thing is the color space set in camera that is listed in the meta data. If the camera is set to sRGB you'll find that entry in the meta data of the raw file.
Nevertheless the profile choosen in camera is ignored by the raw converter. The other thing is that you can set every profile you want to in C1.

Xaphs wrote:export as TIF or JPG.
Not good to export a ProPhoto file as JPG. JPG is 8bit data and ProPhotoRGB is much to big to be handled in 8bit. If you use ProPhotoRGB 16 bit Tif is a must!
On the other hand using ProPhotoRGB is C1 workflow reduced to absurditiy. Many people use it as a substitue for a camera profile in ACR / LR because you can not use the original camera profile as output in Adobe products. And as ACR / LR does relativ colormetric conversion ProPhotoRGB makes (some) sense there. But C1 offers output in the original camera profile ("embed camera profile"). So you save all the colors of the image - not more and not less of the colors.
But if you use ProPhotoRGB the colors of the image will be extended to ProPhotoRGB as C1 uses perceptive colormetric rendering intend. And aftwards it's complicated to convert the ProPhotoRGB file in any other matrix profile as Photoshop does always use relativ colormetric intend when converting a matrix profile to another matrix profile. The only chance to convert ProPhotoRGB files using peceptive RI is conversion in a LUT based profile (such as paper profiles or "PhotogamutRGB").
ProPhotoRGB (and any other color space significant bigger as the camera profile) is completely useless in C1.

Best Regards.
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Postby fuzzybabybunny » Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:14 am

Well, I've got more problems.

ICC Profile is set as Generic.

Output is set as:

TIFF 16 bit, Embed Camera Profile

Because C1 thinks that the color space of the RAW file is sRGB, it outputs the TIFF file as sRGB.

Windows file property shows the TIFF file as having sRGB.
CS3 shows the TIFF file as having sRGB. My working space is ProPhoto and the profile mismatch message says the embedded profile in the TIF is sRGB.

It is not embedding the 30D camera profile into the TIFF file because it thinks the camera profile is sRGB.
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Postby thowi » Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:13 am

fuzzybabybunny wrote:Output is set as:
TIFF 16 bit, Embed Camera Profile
Because C1 thinks that the color space of the RAW file is sRGB, it outputs the TIFF file as sRGB

Yes - it's a bug in V4.0.1 -> http://forum.phaseone.com/viewtopic.php?t=5291
http://forum.phaseone.com/viewtopic.php?t=5295
Phase support confirmed it.
You can switch back to V4.0 ... or wait for V4.0.2.

But it has nothing to do with the color space set in camera.

Best Regards.
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Postby fuzzybabybunny » Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:26 pm

Where do I go to download v4.0? The only download available from the P1 site is for v4.0.1
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Postby thowi » Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:35 pm

thowi wrote:On the other hand using ProPhotoRGB is C1 workflow reduced to absurditiy. Many people use it as a substitue for a camera profile in ACR / LR because you can not use the original camera profile as output in Adobe products. And as ACR / LR does relativ colormetric conversion ProPhotoRGB makes (some) sense there. But C1 offers output in the original camera profile ("embed camera profile"). So you save all the colors of the image - not more and not less of the colors.
But if you use ProPhotoRGB the colors of the image will be extended to ProPhotoRGB as C1 uses perceptive colormetric rendering intend.

Wrong!
When the destination (working space) is a TRC matrix profile (AdobeRGB, sRGB, ProPhotoRGB, ...), C1 (and Photoshop) is just able to do colormetric conversion from the camera profile. Perceptual conversion is just possible if the destination is a LUT profile including the needed table for perceptual RI.
Nevertheless it's definitely better to embed the camera profile instead of converting to ProPhotoRGB as ProPhoto contains a wide range of theoretical colors.
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Postby NN8893232 » Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:39 pm

Hi,

I have a question regarding the output colorspace bug,

If when nominating \"embedded camera profile\" as the output colorspace it defaults to sRGB, does the tiff file actually get mapped to sRGB or is just tagged in error?
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Postby thowi » Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:33 pm

John_Nevill wrote:If when nominating "embedded camera profile" as the output colorspace it defaults to sRGB, does the tiff file actually get mapped to sRGB or is just tagged in error?
I'm quite sure that it gets mapped to sRGB in the right way.
You can check it: do one output with camera profile as destination ("embed camera profile"). Due to the bug it will be converted to sRGB.
Do another output with sRGB set as destination.
Open both the files in Photoshop and drag one of the files on the other (on a new layer... which will be created automatically).
Set the layer mode to "difference". If the image gets black there is no difference like here: http://home.arcor.de/thowidaten/fc/srgb_diff.jpg
So the supposed camera profile image is mapped into sRGB correctly.
And all other destination profiles work fine here too. It's just the camera profile V4.0.1 has trouble with. Next update will fix this hopefully.
Best Regards.
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Postby NN8893232 » Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:43 pm

Thanks thowi,

I checked it and it is being mapped to sRGB, total black output!

This was not what I wanted as C1-4 will be doing a perceptual rendering into the sRGB colorspace, which means any custom profile I create will be colour limited to the sRGB colourspace and inaccurate.

Looks like I'll have to wait for v4.02, unless there is a work around.
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Postby thowi » Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:53 pm

You're welcome.

John_Nevill wrote:This was not what I wanted as C1-4 will be doing a perceptual rendering into the sRGB colorspace
No :-) Due to limitations in TRC profiles (sRGB, AdobeRGB, ECI-RGB...) C1 always use the colormetric method. Spent a quite long time to double and triple check this. It's true.
If you choose a LUT profile (printers, PhotogamutRGB...) C1 uses the perceptual method - as long as the destination profile has the correlating table.

But! If you convert to AdobeRGB or ECI-RGB... everything works correctly. The camera profile is mapped into these profiles (in this case: colormetric).
So you can use everything but the camera profile. If you need the camera profile (I do) you have to wait for the next update unfortunately.

Best Regards.
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Postby NN8893232 » Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:44 pm

Wow, thanks for clarifying this,

I also need the camera profile! :roll:
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Postby Stanislav11 » Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:44 pm

I have DL latest vesion of C4. I have Nikon D80 and if I choose \"generic\" ICC ( or D80) colors in C4 and after conversion are way off. Completely different picture. I get best match ( not exactly the same thou) by choosing Nikon D40x ICC. If I change otput ICC and choose one from listed, there is almost no difference.
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Re: Camera Profile and output profiles all screwed up. ProPh

Postby NNN636104471266391186 » Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:55 am

ProPhoto RGB, 16 bit, tiff.

I always us ProPhoto RGB. Show me how to use ProPhoto RGB with Capture One 9.3.

ProPhoto RGB is used with LR, PS CS 5, and Affinity Photo.

I have listened and viewed sever tutorials and nowhere do I find a simple way to use ProPhoto RGB.

ProPhoto RGB is in my libraries. That’s not an issue.

My only choices are Adobe 1998 and sRGB. I’m not interested in those choices.

If ProPhoto RGB is there, how do I get to it and use ProPhoto RGB?

Kind Regards, David B. Miller, Pharm. D
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