Support of DNGs from Pentax K-30

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Support of DNGs from Pentax K-30

Postby PhaseZero » Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:36 am

The color of DNGs from Pentax K-30 look totally wrong in CaptureOne. The conversion with Adobe DNG-Converter v7.1 does not help (I assume this does only modify the preview size). K-30 does only generate DNG and JPG files. How can I use C1 for my K-30 DNG files???
Last edited by PhaseZero on Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Support of DNGs from Pentax K-30

Postby Drew » Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:51 am

Joseph,
Please reference the release notes. Only PEF files from Pentax Cameras are supported in Capture One and, unfortunately, the Pentax K-30 is not among the supported RAW files in Capture One 6.4.3 as it does not shoot the PEF RAW format.
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Re: Support of DNGs from Pentax K-30

Postby PhaseZero » Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:27 pm

Thank you Drew, that PEF topic is/was already quite clear for me.

I am very dissapointed about the obvious "incompatibility" of DNG files. A slight difference of rendering would be acceptable, but the K-30 DNG files look totally different in SilkyPix, IDimager, CaptureOne, ....

I just did not expect such variations with DNG. With SilkyPix-Pentax version only Pentax files can be processed (that is bad). I do not like to purchase the SP full version and I still prefer C1. But with C1 the colors are terrible (blue turns to magenta). Is there any workaround for C1? May be there is a default C1 recipe which can be used first for all the K-30 DNG files? Or do I have to switch back again to Lightroom? And finally with every new digital camera I need a growing collection of tools, which have to be installed and used in parallel? Originally I expected that with AdobeDNG-Converter I can solve most problems, but with DNGs directly from cameras this is no longer possible.

May be we need for future DNG cameras always a DNG-to-RAW-Converter? :-) Never thaught about such crazy situation. And afterwards a need for RAW2DNG conversion :-)

Regards from Joseph
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Re: Support of DNGs from Pentax K-30

Postby Drew » Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:47 am

PhaseZero wrote:... I just did not expect such variations with DNG... Is there any workaround for C1?


This is the inherent problem with DNG, people see the tag "DNG" and assume it's the same as any other "DNG" when (as you have found) they are very, very different. Using "DNG" as a file tag does not mean that the file is meeting the same structure as every other DNG, it simply means that software's that can read DNG files will recognize it but no promise of proper interpretation.

Is there a workaround? I don't know, create a support case and we'll have a look at one of your files. The likely solution is, as you suggested, a DNG converter to try and standardize the DNG file type that Pentax created but even then you're likely going to see a quality loss.
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Re: Support of DNGs from Pentax K-30

Postby PhaseZero » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:43 pm

Thank you Drew for your patience,

I just opened a ticket. Here are example pictures from Pentax K-30.
All exported JPGs look very very identical to the displayed DNG image in the used software (that is why I did not use screenshots). Under the 320x211 thumbnails you find links to all original 4928x3264 files.

Here is the original JPG from Pentax K-30 (left) and the displayed DNG file from CaptureOne (right) as exported JPG:
Image Image
imgp0097_from_pentax-k30.jpg (6.89 MByte), imgp0097_from_capture-one.jpg (13.1 MByte)
imgp0097_from_pentax-k30.dng (16.2 MByte)

And here are the displayed DNG results from IDimager (left) and SilkyPix (right) as exported JPGs:
Image Image
imgp0097_from_idimager.jpg (6.3 MByte), imgp0097_from_silkypix.jpg (10.5 MByte)
(SilkyPix settings are color "DNG Standard color")

Here is the displayed result from MediaPro as exported JPG:
Image
imgp0097_from_mediapro.jpg (9.4 MByte)
(For this not the original DNG, but the AdobeDNGconverted without preview was used - just to ensure that not the preview is interpreted by MediaPro. In MP for rendering WIC and not PhaseOne engine is selected as noted 3 postings later)

What does mean proper interpretation of DNG for you, for SW developers or for Adobe? I assumed that at least the embedded DNG preview and the parallel JPG from digital cameras should look "quite similar" to the result of rendering software. A strong color change is not proper, isn't it? Compare it with HTML format: Proper interpretation should not change the standard characters.

With SilkyPix-v3.0 provided with Pentax K-30 all colors look just a litle bit pale. But there are additional color modes for DNG selectable, like: Standard Color, Memory Color 1/2, ..., DNG Standard, DNG memory color 1/2, ... and much more. With IDimager the DNGs from K-30 just look a little bit dark, but no further setting is possible. May be the issue is the problem of correct support from RAW editors for embedded ICC and DNG color profiles in DNG files? I have currently no more free Lightroom version to check. May be someone else from the forum can check my DNG with LR and report results? Would be kind!
Last edited by PhaseZero on Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:22 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: Support of DNGs from Pentax K-30

Postby Paul_Steunebrink » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:55 pm

Actually, the JPG from camera looks quite good. Understand that the camera is doing some adjustments during processing depending on your in-camera settings.
When I open the DNG from the camera in Camera Raw 6.7 (PS CS5) it looks a bit dull and flat but after I do some tweaks with Brightness and Contrast sliders, the result quickly improves over the cameras JPG. I assume other raw processors will give similar results.

As you noticed the DNG Neutral File handling with CO6 does not give satisfactory results until CO will support this camera's DNG file explicit.
Last edited by Paul_Steunebrink on Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Support of DNGs from Pentax K-30

Postby Drew » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:07 pm

Think of the DNG in this example as a CR2 (Canon RAW).
Notice that most software's do not simply say, "we support CR2 files". This is because a CR2 from camera A will be different than a CR2 from Camera B. As such, specific cameras are listed as supported when using the RAW CR2 format.
Apply the same concept to DNG. A DNG file as defined by Adobe should fit a specific structure and often software's simply state "we support DNG files" due to this notion of standardized structure. However that blanket support is almost never applicable. A DNG from Camera A is different than a DNG from Camera B and as such specific support for the file needs to be built in Capture One. So the confusion is often that "DNG is a standardized format, shared by many manufactures, that all files labelled with DNG meet". Unfortunately that is not reality.

You may notice from your files that the issue is not only in Color but in general interpretation of the RAW data. Lines in the image are staggered, highlights have a single pink pixel outline, edges lack definition and white pixels abound. It is clear that the file is no ordinary DNG. It is a proprietary RAW format with a "DNG" tag.
Sometimes we can "trick" Capture One into reading the data within the file as if it were a PEF, CR2, NEF, etc, and get some type or workable result. With this specific type of DNG however that is not possible.
Due to the file Tag, Capture One is trying to read it as if it were a supported Adobe DNG file but clearly it is not. Further, the file cannot be converted by Adobe converter into a standardized DNG, so that if nothing else Capture One could properly read it. Ultimately the file is it's own proprietary RAW format despite the "DNG" tag, which will require specialized support be built for it in Capture One (if we can).

As Capture One never has supported the Pentax DNG, we do not have any basis to work off of. I imagine this is why the photo works in Adobe software. Even though the K-30 is NOT listed as a supported RAW file in Adobe, they are reading it as if it were something like a K-20 RAW DNG. I imagine this leaves for some loss in potential quality but do not know for sure.
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Re: Support of DNGs from Pentax K-30

Postby PhaseZero » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:07 pm

I am using MediaPro (MP) for media managment, but not for my digital photos due to a couple of MP limitations and instabilities). Nevertheless I just tested the DNGs from Pentax K-30 with MP and the result is amazing!

With original DNG and from this with three DNGs created trough AdobeDNG-Convert v7.1 (no, medium and full preview) the display of DNGs in MP depends strongly on the selected rendering engine:
  • With selected WIC (WIndows Imaging Component) rendering the result is quite good. I am using FPVC (FastPictureViewerCodec) for WIC, which is a very good, fast and reliable tool.
  • With selected PhaseOne rendering, the result is bad.
Is there more to say about PhaseOne rendering engine which is used by CaptureOne?

In MP further details of rendering configuration have side effects. E.g. the setting of preference for embedded preview. Sometime effects are not immediately visible even after rebuilding of items (Ctrl-B). Another side effect when using the four DNGs with various MP settings is the visible cropping of pictures 4936x3272 vs 4928x3264.
Last edited by PhaseZero on Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Support of DNGs from Pentax K-30

Postby Drew » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:12 pm

PhaseZero wrote:...
  • With selected WIC (WIndows Imaging Component) rendering the result is quite good. I am using FPVC (FastPictureViewerCodec) for WIC, which is a very good, fast and reliable tool.
  • With selected PhaseOne rendering, the result is bad.



Again, the file is NOT supported in Capture One so the Phase One Rendering engine in Media Pro would try and render it as if it were an Adobe DNG (which is supported). This would yield incorrect results.
The WIC Render is based upon the Codec installed on your system for DNG, this is likely reading embedded thumbnails to display the image, unless there is a specific Pentax Codec on your system? Or again, using the Adobe DNG Codec which is a similar workaround to what I explained above.
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Re: Support of DNGs from Pentax K-30

Postby PhaseZero » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:50 pm

Thank you Drew and Paul for your kind replies,
how can I give back to you, what I learn from you?

I converted the Pentax DNG with AdobeDNGConverter not for modification of the RAW content (I think this is also not possible), but to control or to get rid of the embedded preview. And even without embedded preview, the picture is displayed properly from MediaPro (WIC/FPV rendering). I do not use MP for RAW2JPG conversion, because sometimes only the RAW preview is used by MP. But now I wonder why the JPG export from DNG (without preview) with MP is possible and has correct colors and looks good.
Drew wrote:...the WIC Render is based upon the Codec installed on your system for DNG, this is likely reading embedded thumbnails to display the image, unless there is a specific Pentax Codec on your system? Or again, using the Adobe DNG Codec which is a similar workaround to what I explained above.
Hmm. I installed no Pentax codec but only FPVC (FastPictureViewerCodec]. Even the DNG without embedded preview is displayed and converted to JPG quite good from MP. Who is doing this job in MP which cannot be done by C1? How can MP do the DNG2JPG conversion without DNG preview? Is FPV doing this? FPV does also display thumbnails in the Windows filemanager for DNGs without preview (AdobeDNGConverter setting).

Here is the location of all files (filenames should be self explaining): www.ey-com.de/captureone/k-30/...
I just updated the images in fifth posting and URL with JPGs from IDimager, SilkyPix and MediaPro.
So everything looks more or less proper but only with C1 not :(

Regards from Joseph
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Re: Support of DNGs from Pentax K-30

Postby PhaseZero » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:20 pm

There is discussion and big hope in the Pentax community for future support of C1 for K-30 DNGs.
www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-k-30/194485-dng-format-issues.html
There is also confusion and various interpretation why only C1 has problems with certain DNGs.

I am optimistic and wait for X-mas with C1 v6.5 or higher after submission of my DNG ticket to P1.

Update: After a really quick and dirty trial with ICC profile generation from colorchecker chart I was successful. I used ICC Color Camera Calibrator (CoCa) available at www.dohm.com.au/cocad together with a colorchecker classic test chart. Find two profiles at: www.ey-com.de/captureone/k-30/. File "pentax_k-30_tungsten-test.icm" is just a test with the correct JPG file, but file: "pentax_k-30_tungsten-c1-wrong.icm" is a correction for the wrong colors of DNGs in C1 or any JPG/TIF exports from C1, which have not been modified before. If you place the files in directory C:\Windows\System32\spool\drivers\color\ then C1 will show them after next start under BaseCharacteristics ICC-Profile "Other". (See also the forum discussion about DNG profiles at forum.phaseone.com/En/viewtopic.php?p=44552, where I found the reference to CoCa.)

Of course the color level and brightness is not fully correct (my quick and dirty creation with Tungsten light) but the colors are no longer totally wrong in C1. I have strong doubts that this procedure makes sense. After update of C1 for full support of K-30 such correction profiles will be useless. Until this update a correction ICM profile is only a unprofessional workaround, isn't it? But I learned something and may be the discussion is helping others.
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Re: Support of DNGs from Pentax K-30

Postby Paul Silk » Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:56 pm

I read this with interest and thought I would process your DNG image in four raw converter that as yet do not support the K-30.
CO6, ACDSee Pro5, Lightroom 4 and the old Silkypix Pro

I just used the basic setting with no user input and processed them as a jpeg the results can be seen here. I'm not sure I buy the explanation that Drew gave but I am confident it will be sorted by PhaseOne.
http://www.pbase.com/paulsilkphotography/image/145360087/original
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Re: Support of DNGs from Pentax K-30

Postby PhaseZero » Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:01 am

Thank you for very much for your raw-converter comparisons und confidence in CaptureOne updates. Compared with the original JPG from K-30 the converted JPGs from DNG look a little bit dark and pale in colors, isn't it? With IDimager (based on DCRAW) and FastPictureViewerCodec the results look quite similar to your pictures from Lightroom, SilkyPix and ACDsee. I tried also SilkyPix v5.0-pro and SilkyPix v3.0-pentax. The result is quite similar to your findings, but depending a little bit on color profile setting and only with the Pentax-Version of SilkyPix the DNG profiles can be selected.

I still do not understand why only PhaseOne has big color problems with such Pentax-DNGs. Are all other converters just doing a rough estimation job (already with old and current versions) and CaptureOne a perfect job (but only after pending update)?
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Re: Support of DNGs from Pentax K-30

Postby Paul Silk » Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:03 pm

Are all other converters just doing a rough estimation job (already with old and current versions) and CaptureOne a perfect job (but only after pending update)?


I'm guessing that is the case, and each model is individually tailored by PhaseOne.

I base that on (apart from LR) that if you compare the original PEF file and the Adobe DNG converted file in any of the other raw converters there are differences in the rendering/exposure between two suppossedly identical files.

Now if I shoot the same identical image with my K-r in PEF and the DNG format consecutively both images are rendered exactly the same in CO6, this tells me that both the PEF and Pentax DNG files have been profiled/designed for optimum quality for that camera model and not a near enough Standard DNG rendiition.

Which makes me wonder about Drew's statement.
As Capture One never has supported the Pentax DNG,

If this were the case the PEF and Pentax DNG from my K-r would not be identical in CO6

In fact if there is now ony the Pentax DNG file and no PEF from Pentax cameras this should make it easier for PhaseOne. :)
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Re: Support of DNGs from Pentax K-30

Postby PhaseZero » Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:13 am

I tried with photo shots of ColorChart under more defined light conditions to repeat my generation of ICC profile generation to be used in CaptureOne (C1). However I was not really successfull with it. The resulting ICM files lead in C1 to more or less the same result as my rough initial trial. See also the discussion at www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-k-30/194485-dng-format-issues.html

My steps are as follows:
  1. Take photos of X-rite ColorChecker 24 patch with my K-30 (DNG and JPG)
  2. Open original DNG file (with wrong colors) in C1
  3. Select "ICC Profile" and "Curve" in the "BaseCharacteristics". I tried various ICC Profiles from "DNG File DNG Workspace" over "DNG File Neutral" to "No color correction". I tried also "Curve" with "Linear Response" and "Film Standard". There is an impact of these settings, which I do not fully understand, but mainly on the brightness of images at point 9
  4. Keep White Balance as Mode "shot"
  5. Process with C1 to the uncompressed TIFF output with 8 bit and sRGB IEC61966-2.1
  6. Start of the free ICC Color Camera Calibrator named "CoCa" available at http://www.dohm.com.au/coca
  7. Open the TIF file in CoCa. Configure correct settings and create a new ICC profile, which is a ICM file in directory C:\Windows\System32\spool\drivers\color\...
  8. Start C1 (or restart!), open DNG file and select the new ICC Profile available under point "Other..."
  9. Enjoy K-30 images in C1 which are much more looking like the original JPG
Please find here a screenshot from CaptureOne with five images:
  1. Original DNG from K-30 (totally wrong colors)
  2. Original JPG from K-30 with the white selection frame (of course fully correct colors)
  3. Exported TIF with C1 (does look of course identical to 1)
  4. Copy of DNG (1) with just my first trial ICC profile on it and no other modifications (does look quite ok but still with some color deviations mainly visible in blue, green and yellow sqares)
  5. Copy of DNG (1) with another trial ICC profile (not really better than 4 and does look only brighter)
Image
(larger screenshot: www.ey-com.de/captureone/k-30/c1_dng-issue_001.jpg)

In summary I am now a little bit dissappointed and exhausted with my DNG format workflow of K-30 files in C1. I had big expectations on DNG compatibility. May be I also make some mistakes as newbie with C1. Perhaps it is really wise just to wait for C1 update before spending more effort?
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