Moire Issue

Questions, comments and suggestions regarding Phase One P+ series and P series digital camera backs.

Moire Issue

Postby Mark2111 » Thu Dec 09, 2004 10:01 pm

First ever shoot with my spanking new P25 and H1 only to find moiré patterns in areas of the model's suit.

All settings are on default (including the camera). I've tried processing with the sharpening on soft look and disabled - this helps but it's still visible.

I know I can blur it in Photoshop and take the colour fringing out but that's a very time consuming task when you you multiply it to hundred's of different images.

Is there some option I don't have switched on or is moiré a part of life with the P25?
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Postby damienlovegrove » Thu Dec 09, 2004 11:53 pm

No problem. In photoshop select just the part of the suit affected and select 'Demoirize' from the 'phase one' option at the bottom of the filter list.

It works fine for me on the few shots that need it.

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moire issue

Postby Lucas12 » Wed Dec 22, 2004 10:01 am

Hi Mark,
I'm still waiting for my new P25 for my H1, but at the moment I'm using the H25 on my RZ. I recently shot a fashion job on it, which included some really tricky fabrics and I had some moire problems, too. I agree with Damian that the Phase One Demoirize filter in PS is a good way to go when you have colour noise, but it still doesn't quite cope when you also have the density banding that goes along with it. The monochrome textile option is pretty crap, so I opted for the advanced option and fiddled a lot with the size slider to find the optimum result. What I found when going back to the files is that those images that were even slightly out of absolute focus were the least problematic in terms of Moire. I know this is stating the obvious and that it isn't really practical to shoot out of focus, but if you are shooting tethered and can preview your sharpness, you may be able to slightly defocus when needed and re-sharpen later. I found that putting the chip on an angle did very little other than make the moire change direction! Blue and camel colours seemed to be the worst offenders.
Ultimately, though, when the images were viewed at their final print size, the slight moire was a small price to pay for the incredible detail the Phase backs can produce. My client was extremely pleased and the pre-press guys said they had never seen fashion shot digitally that well before!
If anyone finds better ways of reducing moire (and not the blur>average>fade average>hue etc thing which I've tried before and find not as good as demoirize), I'd love to hear about it as it seems to me to be the only stumbling block for my work at the moment.
Good luck Mark and hope I will be sharing more P25 experiences with you all soon. (I think Santa's sack may be empty though, I'm afraid.)
Regards,
Lucas

www.lucasallen.com.au
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Postby Leigh1 » Mon Jan 03, 2005 8:01 pm

A company called Camera Bits makes a filter called Quantum Mechanic which can be very effective in removing color moire. Careful settings will minimize the impact on the rest of the image. Good tool for batch processing images with, although it's always best to work on images individually and target only the problem areas if possible. Always be certain that the solution doesn't look worse than the problem!

WF
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Re:

Postby aaanorton » Tue Jan 11, 2005 5:56 am

damienlovegrove wrote:No problem. In photoshop select just the part of the suit affected and select 'Demoirize' from the 'phase one' option at the bottom of the filter list.

It works fine for me on the few shots that need it.


I don't see this filter. Did you have to install this separately? Please let me know, as I am in the middle of a job that needs this.

My 1Ds MkII showed zero moire on the exact same shot that the P25 can not seem to capture usably. This is very disappointing. Can someone at Phase please address this issue?
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Postby Ulf » Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:42 am

First of all, occurrence of Moiré will happen more or less with all cameras.
When it occurs it is base on angle, aperture and distance.

Changing the distance and lens will remove it.

You can not compare a 35mm and MF in a fixed distance setup when the \"weak\" spot of the two cameras are in two different locations.
There are also several different techniques to remove moiré, one of the more common with DSLR's is to add noise or soften the image.
This is for us an unacceptable way distorting the image and deteriate the image quality even if in some cases it will (subjectively) create a better image.

This is one of the reasons we made the demoiré PS plug-in which give user full control over which and what part of the image that should be corrected and which should not, creating a crisper and cleaner overall image.

If you are using Mac the Moiré tool is in the sub folder called \"Extra\" of the installer disk image.
If you are using Windows the demoiré plug-in is a part of the installer.
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Postby aaanorton » Tue Jan 11, 2005 5:22 pm

My point is that moire seems worse on the P25 than the H25. Couldn't the de-moire tool be added to CO to improve the workflow?
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Postby Ulf » Tue Jan 11, 2005 6:27 pm

The moiré is the same on P25 and H25 due to the fact that they based around the same CCD and same platform but if you are shooting a Hasselblad H now and a Hasselblad V before there might be a slight difference when it occurs, same thing will two lenses have different points when or even if it occurs.

There are several things we are looking in to at the moment where we can improve work flow and this is certainly one of the high ones on the list.
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Postby damienlovegrove » Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:30 pm

Phase One moire filter plug in for Pshop is an optional extra on the install disk. It is also in the download package. You need to action the install process. It is well worth it as I find the results fantastic. Only use it on a selection of your image.

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Postby Patrick2 » Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:56 am

The Phase One Morize filter works well on slight Morize, however when there is a luminance and colour pattern the luminance banding still remains even after the most advanced P1 morize filtering.

Check out this web site for a method that has worked flawlessly on even the most savage morize I have ever seen.

http://www.dbphoto.net/moire/indexpage.html

It takes slightly longer than the P1 filter but it can be incorporated into a PS action to improve work flow.

Changing the distance and lens will remove it.


This is great in theory but doesn't always work, some materials(when shot digitally) will have morize no matter what aperature, lens, distance they are shot with/at. Also it is not always possible to change all or any of these variables in order to get \"The Shot\". So an effective way of removing morize is essential(for us anyway).

All ther best

Tim Morison
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Moire Issues

Postby Adrian12 » Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:59 am

I have been having issues with moire ever since I recieved my P25 (H1 fit) last year and I find the level and frequency of Moire wholly unacceptable. It is not possible to check every shot up close for Moire as this takes away valuable time on the shoot.

In terms of the plug in offered by Phase One, yes this does help in some cases.

I have spent many late nights retouching Moire that shouldn't have been there in the first place. PhaseOne have done an excellent job with the P25 but the issue of Moire should be a real priorty.

Thank you to everone for sharing so much information, ideally this forum should be about getting the best out of our Phase One equipment. Not correcting image capture faults.
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Postby Michael Grøn » Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:42 pm

Hi Adrian

I also use the P25/H1 combo. I, however, almost never see any moire and if so, only neglible levels. What lenses do you use?

Prior to buying the P25, I tested the Leaf 17 which produced quite unacceptable levels of moire.

Did you have any chance to test another P25 back for a shoot of identical fabrics to check whether this may attributed to the back.

Regards Michael
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Postby Adrian12 » Sat Feb 05, 2005 12:06 am

Thanks Michael

According to Phase One in Denmark the raw files check out ok in regards to the back. I use all lenses from 35mm - 150mm at a variety of apertures. The only constant I can find with the Moire is that I am usually stopped down to F8 F11 or there abouts.

I am hoping my very Helpful dealers Teamwork London can get a loan back to me to make a few tests and be sure. Although I don't think this is where the problem lies. I know a number of people with the P25 that whilst not on this forum, are all reporting the same problem.
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