Erratic Crop tool

Discussions, questions, comments and suggestions regarding Capture One PRO, Capture One PRO For Sony / Fujifilm, Capture One DB and Capture One Express For Sony / For Fujifilm 12.x

Erratic Crop tool

Postby NNN636869899835985225 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:47 pm

I must be missing something.

Take three sequentially numbered RAW Fujifilm images (RAF files) that have been imported together. I apply the crop tool on all of them using the same aspect ratio. On the first and third images, the crop tool displays the crop crosshairs cursor and allows me to crop. On the second image, it only displays the crop frame move cursor and a rule of thirds grid line. Nothing I can do will produce the crosshairs cursor that lets me crop the image. The second image is essentially frozen in terms of cropping.

I keep running into this over and over again and it's starting to get annoying.

How do I make the crop tool work as it should on all images?
NNN636869899835985225
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:33 pm

Re: Erratic Crop tool

Postby LarsH » Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:03 am

Hi, I don´t understand your problem, tell a little more. My RAF work ok I think. I cropped one, set it to the arrow right above, mark several other pics, activate the arrow right above right and have the crop frame on all. Then they are to move, change individual. Reg., lars
LarsH
 
Posts: 150
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:46 pm
Location: Berlin, Ger

Re: Erratic Crop tool

Postby NNN636869899835985225 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:12 pm

LarsH wrote:Hi, I don´t understand your problem, tell a little more. My RAF work ok I think. I cropped one, set it to the arrow right above, mark several other pics, activate the arrow right above right and have the crop frame on all. Then they are to move, change individual. Reg., lars


The crop simply doesn't work. I have the crop frame move cursor (four point arrows) and not the crosshairs cursor. I also have a rule of thirds grid when the move cursor is on. There's no way to get the crosshairs cursor and actually crop the image. I don't think it has anything to do with the RAF file.

Simplest description: crop tool works on some images and not others without any indication why.
NNN636869899835985225
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:33 pm

Re: Erratic Crop tool

Postby SFA » Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:55 pm

OK, you are applying the crop tool to each image individually not as part of some copy and paste adjustment?

The second tool already has a crop applied - you can grab the corners to adjust it. If you have a fixed crop ratio applied at that time the ratio will be maintained as you move the corners.

I would guess that the crop may be connected to a lens correction if it has been automatically applied and/or that the crop meets the edge of the image (especially when rotated) at some point. This can result in an apparent 'freeze' of the tool if the adjustments you are try to make are constrained by the touch point.

If you click on the image but outside the already cropped area the existing crop will be removed and you should see the cross hairs.

Alternatively shift (on WIndows - I think the same on Mac) and click on the image should allow you to replace the pre-existing crop.

Of course all of this could be wrong but based on your description this is what I suspect may be happening. If not exactly this then something very similar.


HTH.


Grant
SFA
 
Posts: 7123
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:32 pm

Re: Erratic Crop tool

Postby NNN636869899835985225 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:13 pm

I'm not trying to apply the crop as a paste attribute, but I will check the corners as I think that may be the issue.

Doesn't really explain why when I'm working through a series of images, it seemingly does this randomly with a few of them.
NNN636869899835985225
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:33 pm

Re: Erratic Crop tool

Postby SFA » Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:28 pm

NNN636869899835985225 wrote:I'm not trying to apply the crop as a paste attribute, but I will check the corners as I think that may be the issue.

Doesn't really explain why when I'm working through a series of images, it seemingly does this randomly with a few of them.


Lens correction might do that - especially for zooms at wider angles.

Can you spot a pattern anywhere?

Try selecting the images by lens and sorting by focal length (for example) to see if all of the troublesome images seem to group together.
SFA
 
Posts: 7123
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:32 pm

Re: Erratic Crop tool

Postby NNN636869899835985225 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:41 pm

All photos were shot with a Fujifilm X100T with its fixed 23mm f2 lens. The images were sequential, freshly imported. and the crop tool was the first adjustment applied.

Basically it switches from an Aperture-like crop tool to a Photos-like crop tool without me doing anything.
NNN636869899835985225
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:33 pm

Re: Erratic Crop tool

Postby SFA » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:33 am

NNN636869899835985225 wrote:All photos were shot with a Fujifilm X100T with its fixed 23mm f2 lens. The images were sequential, freshly imported. and the crop tool was the first adjustment applied.

Basically it switches from an Aperture-like crop tool to a Photos-like crop tool without me doing anything.


OK, with that established I can think of 2 options for moving forward unless someone else appears who has experienced the same problem with the same camera.

I would suggest that you create a Support Case and get the C1 Support Team to take a look at the problem.

Alternatively if you are prepared to share (via a file sharing service) a couple of sample files, at least one with the problem and one without, and allow people to download them and check to see if they see the same problems and can make some useful suggestions, usually you will find there are a few here who are willing to take the time to have a look.


HTH.


Grant
SFA
 
Posts: 7123
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:32 pm

Re: Erratic Crop tool

Postby NN635680879799322049UL » Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:06 am

"I have the crop frame move cursor (four point arrows) and not the crosshairs cursor. I also have a rule of thirds grid when the move cursor is on. There's no way to get the crosshairs cursor and actually crop the image."

TO RE-CROP inside an existing crop: Hold down the shift key to make the four-point cursor change to the crosshair cursor and you can re-crop inside the existing crop.

What is going on: When using the crop tool on an image that is already cropped, either manually by the user or as part of the lens profile, what you observed is normal behavior. When you place the cursor outside the cropped area, you will see the crosshair cursor, which will change to the four-point arrow cursor when you move it inside the cropped area. For some reason, the designers presume the default use of the crop cursor inside an existing crop is to move the cropped area not re-crop.
NN635680879799322049UL
 
Posts: 213
Joined: Sun May 24, 2015 7:12 pm

Re: Erratic Crop tool

Postby NNN636869899835985225 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:58 am

NN635680879799322049UL wrote:"I have the crop frame move cursor (four point arrows) and not the crosshairs cursor. I also have a rule of thirds grid when the move cursor is on. There's no way to get the crosshairs cursor and actually crop the image."

TO RE-CROP inside an existing crop: Hold down the shift key to make the four-point cursor change to the crosshair cursor and you can re-crop inside the existing crop.

What is going on: When using the crop tool on an image that is already cropped, either manually by the user or as part of the lens profile, what you observed is normal behavior. When you place the cursor outside the cropped area, you will see the crosshair cursor, which will change to the four-point arrow cursor when you move it inside the cropped area. For some reason, the designers presume the default use of the crop cursor inside an existing crop is to move the cropped area not re-crop.


OK I get that, but why do I get this behaviour when opening an image for the first time? I open the image, examine it, then select the crop tool and I'm already in that "move crop cursor" mode. I never get a chance to even start a crop.
NNN636869899835985225
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:33 pm

Re: Erratic Crop tool

Postby SFA » Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:45 am

NNN636869899835985225 wrote:
NN635680879799322049UL wrote:"I have the crop frame move cursor (four point arrows) and not the crosshairs cursor. I also have a rule of thirds grid when the move cursor is on. There's no way to get the crosshairs cursor and actually crop the image."

TO RE-CROP inside an existing crop: Hold down the shift key to make the four-point cursor change to the crosshair cursor and you can re-crop inside the existing crop.

What is going on: When using the crop tool on an image that is already cropped, either manually by the user or as part of the lens profile, what you observed is normal behavior. When you place the cursor outside the cropped area, you will see the crosshair cursor, which will change to the four-point arrow cursor when you move it inside the cropped area. For some reason, the designers presume the default use of the crop cursor inside an existing crop is to move the cropped area not re-crop.


OK I get that, but why do I get this behaviour when opening an image for the first time? I open the image, examine it, then select the crop tool and I'm already in that "move crop cursor" mode. I never get a chance to even start a crop.


Usually because of automatic lens correction although there may be other possibilities.
SFA
 
Posts: 7123
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:32 pm

Re: Erratic Crop tool

Postby NNN636869899835985225 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:21 pm

OK, I've not spent much time in lens correction, but I see that it has a crop function as well, which surprised me. Wouldn't have thought one would be there. I've configured the tools appropriately and we'll see what happens.

Thanks
NNN636869899835985225
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:33 pm

Re: Erratic Crop tool

Postby SFA » Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:16 pm

NNN636869899835985225 wrote:OK, I've not spent much time in lens correction, but I see that it has a crop function as well, which surprised me. Wouldn't have thought one would be there. I've configured the tools appropriately and we'll see what happens.

Thanks


In order to fix the distortion the pixels will be pushed and pulled and leave a non-rectangular shape often with relatively poor edge quality. How much of this effect there may be depends on a number of factors.

If shooting RAW and jpg the effect can easily be seen by comparing the 2 files with the RAW in a RAW converter with all correction turned off.

Having said "easily seen" in many cases that is the case but some distortion corrections are quite subtle.

That said if using a fixed lens camera I would have thought optical distortion requiring correction would apply very much the same adjustments for each shot but that seems not to be the case here? (Zooms, as you might expect, vary.)
SFA
 
Posts: 7123
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:32 pm

Re: Erratic Crop tool

Postby NNN636869899835985225 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:50 pm

I'm primarily a street photographer: http://streetphotographyontario.ca so lens correction is irrelevant to me. If I was an architectural photographer, then I would be of a different mindset. As a consequence, this was a part of this software that was not worth spending the time to learn.

I'll continue to monitor this, but it is bizarre to me that the crop tool can be in two places and that one can overwrite the other on a seemingly random basis.

Thanks for the help.
NNN636869899835985225
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:33 pm

Re: Erratic Crop tool

Postby SFA » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:29 am

NNN636869899835985225 wrote:I'm primarily a street photographer: http://streetphotographyontario.ca so lens correction is irrelevant to me. If I was an architectural photographer, then I would be of a different mindset. As a consequence, this was a part of this software that was not worth spending the time to learn.

I'll continue to monitor this, but it is bizarre to me that the crop tool can be in two places and that one can overwrite the other on a seemingly random basis.

Thanks for the help.


In the case of modern cameras and lenses where small and light components trump optically perfect large, heavy (and expensive) glass digital "image" files and software can facilitate the use of extreme image correction and still deliver very acceptable results.

In some cases the designers have relied on this so achieve smaller, lighter and cheaper designs.

Actually by now it is probably used in most cases. Some results can be quite extreme adjustments once the distortion has been corrected and the maximum rectangular area that could be defined in the with the remaining pixels may have heavily distorted edge areas to the point of being unusable. They are cropped be default to get something that is considered to be a usable result acceptable for most purposes for most users but one can override the crop if one wishes. Indeed one can turn off default application of lens correction in the Lens tool although I'm not entirely sure whether that would always apply if the camera/lens manufacturer expected to use correction as part of the design brief.

It's all the same Crop tool by the time you need to consider using it.
SFA
 
Posts: 7123
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:32 pm


Return to Capture One 12.x Software



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest