Moving only one variant to a collection

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Moving only one variant to a collection

Postby NNN636236707618227636 » Fri May 17, 2019 2:10 am

Hi !
I'm new with capture one 12. Trying to organize my Catalog, creating Collections and dragging images in. I'm noticing that even if I only select ONE IMAGE, and drag it to an ALBUM, all the variants are added. I do not want this, I want to be able to move only ONE VARIANT. How to do so ?
Thanks !
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Re: Moving only one variant to a collection

Postby Eric Nepean » Fri May 17, 2019 7:21 am

Unfortunately that's not possible in Capture One, only with a smart album.
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Re: Moving only one variant to a collection

Postby IanL » Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:31 pm

May I suggest opening a support case to request that feature. Some of us have. The more requests they get the higher priority it could get.
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Re: Moving only one variant to a collection

Postby ben_US » Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:39 pm

Yes; you can make the suggestion via the proper channel via the link in my profile :).
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Re: Moving only one variant to a collection

Postby Delwood » Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:14 pm

I have to admit that I have been thinking of making a duplicate of the RAW with editing using EIP, and then giving it a new name and re-importing to get around this incredible lapse in the database structure.

Here is an example why: I sometimes will use the overall picture and one or more crops that might change from Vertical to Horizontal or only use part of the image. At this point they are different pictures, not variants. They need different names, different locations, even different annotation in my catalogs! (while this was possible in Aperture, not in Capture One).

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Re: Moving only one variant to a collection

Postby SFA » Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:17 pm

Delwood wrote:I have to admit that I have been thinking of making a duplicate of the RAW with editing using EIP, and then giving it a new name and re-importing to get around this incredible lapse in the database structure.

Here is an example why: I sometimes will use the overall picture and one or more crops that might change from Vertical to Horizontal or only use part of the image. At this point they are different pictures, not variants. They need different names, different locations, even different annotation in my catalogs! (while this was possible in Aperture, not in Capture One).

Delwood


The outputs may need different names to assist identification once separate from the original and its edits but that can be achieved without creating multiple copies and edits of the original file in different places.

If you will always want the same EDITS bit different crops/names it seems a bit of a work overload to have to maintain multiple copies of the original and its edits in multiple locations. After all, internally the computer does not care how you think you have arranged matters - it will always do its own thing.

In most cases there is no reason why a single original with multiple variants could not achieve what you want SO LONG AS you access the files through the C1 Catalogue or Session in which it is stored.

If you want this naming requirement to work for the Original file within the Computers File system management then you are indeed going to have to compromise - although not with output files. So the Finished image ready for wider 'public' consumption can have any name you like without that requirement forcing you to have multiple copies of an image or multiple names for the original edits.

As previously indicated, smart albums can deal with grouping and finding variants of images.

That said, once one has finished working on an image and the variants are done and the output produced ... how often do we really need to go back into an image and its variants at a later date to change anything and re-process it?

Just some thoughts.


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Re: Moving only one variant to a collection

Postby Delwood » Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:29 pm

OK, let's try a simple example.

I have a horizontal picture of people playing on the beach. There are variants 1-4, and variant 3 is my pick.

I make several variants from the above 4, but each is a vertical picture of 1 or two people.
So now I have the following, with unique labels:
Variant 3 - Friends playing at Baker Beach with the Golden Gate Bridge in the background
Variant 6 - George playing in the surf
Variant 8 - Paul and the dog running on the beach
I want to be able to select Variants 3, 6 and 8 as picks in the same catalog. Each should have the distinct names mentioned.
The keywords for each of the variants will be different. v3 has the GoldenGateBridge, v8 has Dog and probably dogname. etc.

As far as I can tell this is impossible. Please don't invoke a smart album.
My assertion is that the only way to achieve this is to copy the original and rename, since Capture One cannot do this.

I hope that you can show me how to accomplish this ...
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Re: Moving only one variant to a collection

Postby SFA » Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:20 pm

Delwood wrote:OK, let's try a simple example.

I have a horizontal picture of people playing on the beach. There are variants 1-4, and variant 3 is my pick.

I make several variants from the above 4, but each is a vertical picture of 1 or two people.
So now I have the following, with unique labels:
Variant 3 - Friends playing at Baker Beach with the Golden Gate Bridge in the background
Variant 6 - George playing in the surf
Variant 8 - Paul and the dog running on the beach
I want to be able to select Variants 3, 6 and 8 as picks in the same catalog. Each should have the distinct names mentioned.
The keywords for each of the variants will be different. v3 has the GoldenGateBridge, v8 has Dog and probably dogname. etc.

As far as I can tell this is impossible. Please don't invoke a smart album.
My assertion is that the only way to achieve this is to copy the original and rename, since Capture One cannot do this.

I hope that you can show me how to accomplish this ...


Is this a one-off exercise for a one-off output file or print are you process the image variants or do you need to repeat it frequently?

If it's a one-off for the entire name then simply name at the point of output or rename post output.

The amount of effort in typing the Description is much the same.

If you would prefer to make the description permanent and archived with the variant then you have the IPTC fields in the variant's metadata to use in the same way that news agencies, et al., use the fields to produce those (sometimes annoying and repetitive) captions that one sees under on-line news report images.

IPTC Content - Description

seems like the most obvious choice for your needs but to add flexibility most of the fields can be 'repurposed' for personal use. Possibly not so acceptable if supplying news agencies though.

The fields can be used for filtering. (IPTC Content - Content Description for example) though in most cases it would probably be simpler to use Keywords to achieve the required search and select and thus avoid the potential search complexity related to partial contents or remembering the phrases used along with the clutter of filler words line "and, in, on, the" etc.

The fields are also available in the TAGs for the Output Naming tool facility.

And you could, should you wish, print the Description on the output image as a Watermark.

Somewhere along the line you will benefit from some sort of identification - from any of the available fields - that joins the set of images together. In this case, since all variant come from the same image, it might be the location of the shoot (Baker Beach?) or, more simply, the date the image was taken.

All of that would be quite flexible but if you simply want to make a 'one album' type connection because the variant images may not appear in more than one album than use another IPTC field of your choosing (or that is considered to be standard for that sort of use if yours is a commercial operation) and use that alone as appropriate. The other fields might be used for more flexible album grouping from time to time. No need for multiple copies of the originals.

This is a very rough outline of some of the things that you could consider. Making use of them should mean less work managing the files. However if you prefer operate with things looking more like a physical filing cabinet and are content with manually controlling the filing process these options are still useful in some ways but you likely will have a preference to simply manage things manually.

One option for that would be to produce the OUTPUT files from the variants and then use those as the catalogue, considering them to be individual finished files in their own right, no longer variants.

Should you ever need to go back the original for further work on the variant so long as your output process retains a method to identifying the original file from which it was produced it should be easy enough to go back to the original and make changes.


HTH.


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Re: Moving only one variant to a collection

Postby Eric Nepean » Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:24 pm

Delwood wrote:OK, let's try a simple example.

I have a horizontal picture of people playing on the beach. There are variants 1-4, and variant 3 is my pick.
I make several variants from the above 4, but each is a vertical picture of 1 or two people.
I have this problem also, only some parts of it are solveable with C1
So now I have the following, with unique labels:
Variant 3 - Friends playing at Baker Beach with the Golden Gate Bridge in the background
Variant 6 - George playing in the surf
Variant 8 - Paul and the dog running on the beach
I want to be able to select Variants 3, 6 and 8 as picks in the same catalog.
C1 only allows one pick per image file
Each should have the distinct names mentioned.
In C1 the image name is the file name. One can assign Titles and Descriptions to each variant separately
The keywords for each of the variants will be different. v3 has the GoldenGateBridge, v8 has Dog and probably dogname. etc.
No problem, this is possible in C1
As far as I can tell this is impossible.
Agreed. One can either decide to live with C1 as it is, and hope that they will make an improvements according to your feature requests (which may be some months or years coming), or decide to to live with some other tool or combination of tools (and their limitations).
I have decided to live with C1, and make up the features I miss with a combination of Smart albums, hijacking of IPTC metadata fields and AppleScripts. YMMV.
Please don't invoke a smart album.
My assertion is that the only way to achieve this is to copy the original and rename, since Capture One cannot do this.

I hope that you can show me how to accomplish this ...
Sorry, no.
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Re: Moving only one variant to a collection

Postby Delwood » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:09 am

Thanks for your feedback Eric.

I will be experimenting with duplicate originals with slightly different names to test out this approach. My goal as stated is to develop multiple finished products from a single image. While this duplication has an inefficiency it may be the only workaround that doesn’t require me to do extra work.

I want to be clear that this is present in many of my Aperture catalogs (not a one-off!). I too am working around the deficiencies in the Capture One catalog, yet I am inspired by the subtle photo editing.

I’ll post more once I get back to the editing.
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Re: Moving only one variant to a collection

Postby Eric Nepean » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:53 am

Hi Delwood

Although you may not be interested, I have developed an Applescript to quickly and Automatically generate a Smart Album with a rule that "captures" the selected variants. The Applescript also allows one to add more variants or remove variants from the Smart Album.

If you're interested I'll publish it.

Also, In this posting there is a company asking for a "stack" function which is effectively a new type of collection that holds only variants. https://forum.phaseone.com/En/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=31624

If this interests you, might be an idea to make a feature request for the same thing.
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Re: Moving only one variant to a collection

Postby Delwood » Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:57 am

Yes, please publish your AppleScript.

Thanks for the pointer to stacking. I can imagine having groups based upon panorama or focus stacking. For me the use would be across related images. But the same tool could pick variants as well.
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Re: Moving only one variant to a collection

Postby SFA » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:41 am

Note that variants can be moved around in the sequence.

For completeness in a variant picked for an album where only that variant is acceptable there would need to be some thought given to variant identification or position locking since variant position alone does not have the ability to securely fix the identity of the particular variant required.
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Re: Moving only one variant to a collection

Postby Eric Nepean » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:30 pm

SFA wrote:Note that variants can be moved around in the sequence.

For completeness in a variant picked for an album where only that variant is acceptable there would need to be some thought given to variant identification or position locking since variant position alone does not have the ability to securely fix the identity of the particular variant required.

Hi Grant
The script I have is based on adding a keyword to a variant. (I know, I have said its based on IPTC Metedata, but I wrote it some months ago). So no matter what is done with other variants, the identified variant doesn't change.

Inside, Capture One assigns variant IDs. As far as I can see they are permamanenet and not resssigned. QUite possibly its one of the database keys. A native CO feature will very likely use the variant ID.
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Re: Moving only one variant to a collection

Postby SFA » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:33 pm

Eric Nepean wrote:
SFA wrote:Note that variants can be moved around in the sequence.

For completeness in a variant picked for an album where only that variant is acceptable there would need to be some thought given to variant identification or position locking since variant position alone does not have the ability to securely fix the identity of the particular variant required.

Hi Grant
The script I have is based on adding a keyword to a variant. (I know, I have said its based on IPTC Metedata, but I wrote it some months ago). So no matter what is done with other variants, the identified variant doesn't change.

Inside, Capture One assigns variant IDs. As far as I can see they are permamanenet and not resssigned. Quite possibly its one of the database keys. A native CO feature will very likely use the variant ID.


Eric,

It sounds like the script (I was not specifically referring to your post BTW but recognise you would face the same challenge addressing the same task.) is making use of populating field(s) along to work along the much the same suggestions I put forward for using a Smart Album. Is that correct?

In effect doing anything else would end up giving the same result but by another method I guess..

How one populates the chosen field(s) seems to be the issue. Mostly whether the script provides a more accurate and time effective update than existing options.

Or have I missed something?

Of course the script would be of no use to a Windows user, sadly.


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