Media Pro refugees: What are our DAM demands? (for CO)

[syncrasy]

Note: I had created a similar thread in one of the Capture One 11 forums when I first learned Media Pro had been discontinued. My instinct was to put it on the Capture One forum since Phase One wants MP users to migrate to C1, but I realized later that there are separate Mac and Windows forums for C1, so I now think it's best to have this thread in the Media Pro forum (where the most aggrieved customers/users are) and maintain the master list of demands here.

Phase One has officially discontinued Media Pro, the stellar DAM software, and is suggesting that Media Pro users migrate to Capture One. (Past discussions of "integration" between C1 and MP are now moot as Media Pro will no longer be updated or sold.)

Many users have complained about performance issues with C1 catalogs. Media Pro users such as myself lamented the lack of DAM/catalog feature parity between C1 and MP.

This thread is intended to serve as a place for Media Pro refugees to voice their demands for DAM features in C1. After all, Phase One has owned Media Pro for over 8 years, and now they have killed it (even though C1 lacks many of the most useful DAM/catalog features of Media Pro). If Phase One wants Media Pro users to purchase and use Capture One as a DAM replacement for Media Pro, Phase One should provide feature and performance parity in C1 and make the migration process seamless. I've created a list of requested features/functionality below. The list isn't necessarily comprehensive, so I'll update it as needed based on your suggestions. (Update Aug 30: I have submitted this list to Phase One technical support to make sure they are officially aware of these demands.)

Basic DAM/catalog functionality

• Capture One (probably) uses a non-standard database design to associate keywords with images, resulting in poor catalog performance. This unconfirmed issue was discovered by user mli20, who conducted a database experiment and reported the results in his thread "Performance re. keywording, an in-depth analysis." If mli20's conclusions are true, then Phase One should take them seriously and overhaul CO's catalog if it wishes the software to be considered a professional DAM.
• Capture One catalogs apparently work only with "online" images, which results in severe usability flaws. The catalogs "rescan" the files each time you select "All images," resulting in extremely long wait times for large collections of images while the catalog rebuilds thumbnails and metadata. (See "Re: Shame about the Catalogue function...".) This appears to be due to C1 always checking that the image files are "online." I believe this has the secondary effect of never allowing you to preview the images in your collection if the images are on an offline drive. These are severe limitations. A proper DAM/catalog should store thumbnails and metadata in a proper database without having to rescan the images repeatedly and so that you can see the thumbnails of your catalogued images even if the source images are offline.
• Capture One does not allow for useful organization of "variant" images in collections. See "How to delete a variant from one and only one collection?" In the words of C1 user Class A, "Any image variants ... are forced to occur in all albums in which any of their related variants occur. Likewise, removing a variant in one album, removes it from every other album.... As far as I'm concerned, the idea of a 'variant' in C1 is unnecessarily crippled and severely limits one's ability to usefully organise and protect one's images (from unintended further edits)."
• Capture One doesn't allow you to add keywords to very small images, even if the file type is supported. (See "Unable to add keywords to some images (why)?".) This appears to be due to a C1 preference for files that can be edited in C1. That's another severe limitation. Any DAM/catalog should allow you to catalog/annotate supported file types regardless of file size.
• Capture One doesn't allow you to add keywords to monochrome images/scans. (See "Cannot add keywords.".) This appears to be due to a C1 requirement for color/RGB files. Another severe limitation. Any DAM/catalog should allow you to catalog/annotate supported file types regardless of color space (RGB or grayscale).
• Capture One catalogs on a Mac (Windows too?) do not allow for non-contiguous selections, e.g., Shift-clicking non-contiguous groups of thumbnails. This is a basic software design flaw that should be fixed.
• Capture One catalogs do not provide any visual indicators to convey which Collection(s) an image is a member. (In Media Pro, if you select an image thumbnail, the name(s) of the Catalog Set(s) (a.k.a. Collections) to which the image belongs turn orange in color.)

Migration issues (migrating from Media Pro catalogs to Capture One catalogs)

• C1 does not honor hierarchies of MP hierarchical keywords. This should be fixed.
• C1 does not honor People tags / People finder. This should be fixed.
• Other migration issues?

Requested DAM features currently in Media Pro catalogs that should be added to Capture One catalogs (higher priority)

• Custom catalog fields
• Search across multiple catalogs. (In that sense it can catalog an unlimited number of items, beyond the 250,000 image limit of a single catalog.)
• Show Union of Folder Hierarchies (to view contents of parent folder and its subfolders)
• Transfer/copy files to another folder
• Ability to assign names to color tags
• Customizable View Options
• Built-in scripts (for bulk changes to database, metadata, etc.). Yes, it's possible to create custom AppleScripts in Capture One, but not everyone is comfortable writing scripts. There is no good reason for Phase One not to port over Media Pro's built-in scripts to Capture One.
• Make (robust) HTML/Web Galleries (Media Pro's HTML templates are more powerful XML-based templates that can create multiple index pages for a single gallery; easily regenerated without having to re-enter text fields; customizable if you know HTML/CSS) (But Media Pro's code is old and doesn't support HTML 5 for embedded video, so this code should be updated for HTML 5)
• Find duplicate items
• Find missing items
• Send images as email attachments (A user reports that C1 can send single images, but not multiple images in one email)
• Quick access to helper applications (other editors, viewers)
• Set Capture Date
• Set Author Details
• Set Finder Properties
• Sort by file property (e.g., file name, modified date, etc.)
• Find images by file property (e.g., file name, modified date, etc.)
• Sort by place
• Sort by annotation field
• Make Text Data File
• Make XML Data File
• Create Capture Sets (burst image groups)
• Convert Video/Audio Files
• [from another forum user] A proper projection (slideshow) facility, allowing control over things like: which monitor is used for rendering; scaling of projected images; how many images are projected concurrently; choice of background colour; overlay of metadata information; access to a "controller" showing position in the slideshow; ability to set colour label and star rating while projecting; ability to change catalog sets (albums) during projection; and lots more.
• A separate free program that gives clients the ability to view C1 catalogs in read-only mode (similar to Media Pro Reader).

Requested DAM features currently in Media Pro catalogs that should be added to Capture One catalogs (lower priority)

• Support for multiple non-image file types
• Save Slide Show as Movie

[syncrasy]

Here's a quick terminology primer to make sure Media Pro and Capture One folks can talk to each other (if I missed any, let me know):

Annotations in MP = Metadata in CO
Notepad in MP = Annotations in CO (just a collaboration tool; nothing to do with metadata)
Catalog Sets in MP = User Collections: Albums in CO
(Controlled) vocabulary editor in MP = Keyword libraries in CO
Update folders in MP = Sync folders in CO
Reset paths in MP = Locate in CO
Convert Image Files in MP = Export variants in CO

[Edgephoto]

I would like to see:

the Filters tool tool to look more similar to Media Pro.
Speed when clicking all images and trying to search or use a filter
Ability to search all Capture One catalogs
Add keywords from import window
An export to Flickr, Smugmug, email etc
A robust slideshow tool

[Comadeuro]

With Media Pro one could organize all kind of digital media (images, videos, scans, documents) with one tool at one place. Capture One only supports formats that can be processed by C1. It does not process RAW-files of cheap compact cameras and does not support sophisticated image file formats like High Efficiency Image File Format (.heif, .heic) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Efficiency_Image_File_Format] or High Efficiency Video Coding (HEVC) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Efficiency_Video_Coding] as it is produced e.g. by current apple's smartphones.

I'm wishing an asset management, where I can collect all kind of media that I've collected during a trip an not only those I've taken with equipment supported by Capture One.

[NN122823UL2]

My demands?

Sell the software to someone who wants to continue it or Open Source it. It's not a competitor to Capture One.

[NN635880421282893323UL]

It's the first time I join this forum.
Thank you for all the information I could read there.
I just wanted to bring my account. The more we are to shout, the more we'll be audible.
As all the participants, I was really disappointed when I received the eMail announcing they discontinue Media Pro SE just after I came back from holidays with hundreds of images to organize and process.
I've been using it since I bought my first digital Camera in 2005. As mentioned in many posts, it was called Iview Media Pro, ands quite cheap (something like 60€ - I live in France, so pardon my English). It was then bought by Microsoft, who changed the packaging and doubled the price.
Since then, it has not evolved a lot. I upgraded to Expression Media (free upgrade - I never paid for the next versions) and more recently to Phase One Media Pro SE.
As many of you, I hoped a good integration between Capture 1 and Media Pro in order to benefit of both good cataloging and image processing capabilities in the same application. For Raw processing I just used the Canon Digital Photo Profesional package. But it was not possible to see the effect of the recipes in MPSE. This is why I was thinking of buying C1.
The announcement of the end of MPSE accelerated the decision. I dowloaded a version of C1 to test it. I watched the two Webinars about the migration of Catalogs from MPSE to C1 and about the organization of images in C1. I first though it would be seamless. But now I am trying to organizes photos coming from different cameras, with some dates to re-assign (I forgot to change the date of my Canon when I landed at San Francisco coming from Paris). I then realize that C1 capabilities are VERY FAR from that of MPSE.
And I am all but a profesional user. I just use simple functionalities.
I have nothing to add to the list established by Syncrasy.
I think the priorities he defined are OK.
The loss of "People" tags and hierarchical keywords are unacceptable when people are "invited" to move from one product to the other
I perfectly agree with him when he put in first priority:
- The addition of Custom catalog fields
- The ability to Transfer/copy files to another folder
- Customizable View Options (I am not sure if this item refers to the same thing that I have in mind. To clarify what I refer to, when pictures are displayed in list in both C1 and MPSE, right click in the header bar of the table to display the choice of information that can be displayed in columns - I wanted to join screen captures but I did not find the way to do it)
- Find duplicate items
- Find missing items
- Set Capture Date
- Sort by place
- Sort by annotation field
As Edgephoto, I think the filtering is quite heavy in C1. It is more flexible in MP. But it may be a matter of getting used to it
And as well (but it may be a dream sine Phase One likely consider C1 as a Photo oriented application) the ability to catalog any types of media. This versatility was a a real strength of iView Media Pro (the term Media was well chose in the name of the soft)
What next for me ?
As with iView Media Pro and Expression Media, I will use MPSE as long as my system (computer and OS - I am on Mac) will allow it. I may (or may not) buy C1. But surely not for its cataloging capability. I have to test the integration between both softwares. I thought of switching to Adobe package. But I am VERY RELUCTANT to the system of yearly or monthly subscription. In Raw Image processing, we are "prisoner" of the application we use to process the images. Recipes are not transferrable to one application to the other. I don't want to add another lock to my cell

[Markus241]

Capture One 11 is very slow in handling large amounts of images. So catalogs are useless for DAM. Converting MediaPro catalogs back to C1 does not work properly - converting them to LR, the essential functionality mainly with P1 backs gets lost.

Media Pro is/was the only DAM solution for photographers working with P1 backs and many other camera systems, since it was able to store previews of LCC corrected and otherwise adapted images - without always handling a RAW conversion engine and camera profiles. It will be almost impossible to replace Media Pro for an external company, because they would need a very close collaboration/insight into P1 secret sauce to maintain the features new versions of C1 will bring.

C1 - as a possible DAM tool in future - would have to meet the following requirements:
- open to all camera systems (including Hasselblad etc...)
- fast preview and thumbnail handling based on the previews in C1 - not working on RAWs directly
- search capabilities in selected catalogs in > 100'000 images
- stable and more evolved hierarchical keyword usage
Therefore C1 would need a new module: catalogs for DAM use only - with at least all option Media Pro has already provided! Hmmm - keep on dreaming - P1 do you hear us?

[NN106518UL1]

Like many of the other companies that offered desktop DAM programs, I suspect we will see Media Pro re-incarnated as a high-end, expensive offering. Extensis Portfolio once was a $199 desktop version. I can still log-in to my account and see my invoice. Extensis just quoted me $12K for a desktop version. Canto is another DAM system that use to be a desktop version. Back in 2003 Canto was $199. I have a Canto DAM quote on my desk today for $10K. Another DAM offering is Brandworks, $20K.
So, for what we were getting from C1 for the price was pretty incredible in comparison to the market price DAM systems today. I suspect it will be back.

[roberte]

Yeah I too still have Portfolio and Cumulus licenses from the 1990s! Extensis and Canto stopped making standalone DAM years ago. The server versions continue and that's the one you see at $10K+.

From that era Fotoware is the only one I see left with FotoStation still available at $149. It was bundled with my Nikon D1 way back when!

Edit: FotoStation Pro is $549 and needed to catalogue offline content + more features.

[stea]

One add, besides all major things already highlited: MP have a very useful (for me) freeware MP-reader... nothing alike in the future for the catalogues of C1?

[syncrasy]

One add, besides all major things already highlited: MP have a very useful (for me) freeware MP-reader... nothing alike in the future for the catalogues of C1?

Thanks. Added to the list. I also added an item related to CO's inability to add keywords to very small images.

[syncrasy]

For what it's worth, I've been quietly adding to the list of CO's catalog issues based on reports from CO users in the CO threads. See the top of this thread for the revised list. Because it is unlikely Phase One will address these issues anytime soon, this list effectively is no longer a list of demands, but rather a document of CO's DAM shortcomings. The list is useful as a quick reference sheet for people who want to understand why CO is unsuitable as a DAM or as a replacement for Media Pro.

[mli20]

Capture One does not allow for useful organization of "variant" images in collections. ...

Again, this is the result of an inexpedient database design.


Current layout: Collection membership is a property of images. All variants of an image share the collection membership.

[variant] ------> [image] <------ [image/collection] -----> [collection]


Desirable layout: Collection membership is a property of variants. Any variant of an image can have its own set of collection memberships.

[image] <------ [variant] <------ [variant/collection] -----> [collection]


MLi

[photeinos]

Has anything been done to answer this question, since it was written?

C1 does not honor hierarchies of MP hierarchical keywords. This should be fixed.

I am so angry at the cancellation of Media Pro, without Capture One being upgraded to handle Media Pro's data that I cannot express myself politely. so I'll say nothing.

[Ian3]

I thought that there had been an update to Capture One that had corrected the problem of hierarchical keywords not being imported. Or am I mistaken?

Ian