Issue Where I Lose Work

Discussions, questions, comments and suggestions regarding Capture One PRO, Capture One PRO For Sony / Fujifilm, Capture One for Phase One and Capture One Express For Sony / For Fujifilm 20.x for Windows

Issue Where I Lose Work

Postby chadchat » Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:01 pm

This is a bit difficult to explain because it's not clear to me what's happening, however fairly regularly I will be working my way through folders in a catalog in Capture One and all of a sudden when I select the next folder the browser states 'no images in collection'. I select another folder and I get the same thing, even though that I can see there are x no# of images there in each folder. At this point I know that if I try to backup the catalog it will fail. This action fails every time and it also means that if I switch to a new catalog or reopen Capture One I will have lost my recent work. This happened to me in 12 and it still happens in 20. It's as if Capture One has lost connection with my drive...or something, but I don't know of anyway to wake it up.
Has anybody had a similar experience, or understands what's happening and how to fix it?
User avatar
chadchat
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:17 am
Location: Sweden

Re: Issue Where I Lose Work

Postby Paul_Steunebrink » Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:26 pm

First, please verify your catalog (File menu, Verify). I encourage you to do it regularly.

Second, is your catalog on your internal or external drive? I do not mean the images, but the catalog itself. I prefer to have this on the internal drive to prevent this kind of issue.
User avatar
Paul_Steunebrink
Certified Professional
Certified Professional
 
Posts: 10072
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:49 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Issue Where I Lose Work

Postby chadchat » Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:50 pm

Thanks for your reply. My catalog is on an internal SSD drive in my PC, which I back up to a NAS. I used to have my catalogs on my NAS which I would have to wake up sometimes, but even then I didn't have this issue, so suggesting it feels like C1 loses connection to my drive is not really accurate. I just don't know how to clearly explain it. C1 still states that I have 10208 images in my catalog (it happens with other catalogs also, not just this one), recent imports are still there, all looks normal except my filters aren't populated, meaning there are to rating or color tags listed when there should be, and my browser says there are no images in the collection.
I can still right click on a folder and 'Show in Explorer', but that's about all I can do.
User avatar
chadchat
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:17 am
Location: Sweden

Re: Issue Where I Lose Work

Postby SFA » Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:20 pm

Have you got any filters active as you work through your folders?

Can you go back to the last folder that produced results? If so, does it still give results?

The working catalog (or at least the active parts of it) should be held in working memory ready for rapid presentation.
Giver the typical size of the memory this is likely to require more memory than just the system memory and so may well use temporary memory on disk.

So there could be a system issue where for some reason or because of some setting for the connection to the "memory", wherever that connection might take things, is not working at that moment (on my WIndows system that happens from time to time when I am running out of disk space having filled it up to its operational limits.)

Or it could be that your next selection needs data that has not previously been taken in to memory from disk and for some reason the connection is very slow to kick in and cannot do so at all.

I have seen that sort of potential delay and process failure sometimes with external drives and my NAS but not that I can remember when using an internal drive.

Do you have any special settings for power management within the system?

The log files may possibly offer some clues about what was happening at the time the system stopped responding.


HTH.


Grant
SFA
 
Posts: 7724
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:32 pm

Re: Issue Where I Lose Work

Postby chadchat » Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:21 am

SFA wrote:Have you got any filters active as you work through your folders?
> Not necessarily

Can you go back to the last folder that produced results? If so, does it still give results?
> All folders at this point return nothing, as does selecting 'Catalog Collections > All images'

The working catalog (or at least the active parts of it) should be held in working memory ready for rapid presentation.
Giver the typical size of the memory this is likely to require more memory than just the system memory and so may well use temporary memory on disk.
>I will run a memory diagnostics to check that I don't have an issue with my RAM, but I generally don't run much more than Chrome while I'm using C1, my system is a vanilla Windows 10 install with: Radeon RX 590 Series - Memory Size - 8192 MB, System Memory - 16 GB. I have over 100gb free on all my drives.

So there could be a system issue where for some reason or because of some setting for the connection to the "memory", wherever that connection might take things, is not working at that moment (on my WIndows system that happens from time to time when I am running out of disk space having filled it up to its operational limits.)
>Obviously I don't know the ins and outs of the system at this level, but it does feel like something in that direction. I did notice that my internal drive is listed under the Windows taskbar in the 'Safely Remove Hardware and Eject Media' as a device I'm able to eject, and I thought that was odd.

Or it could be that your next selection needs data that has not previously been taken in to memory from disk and for some reason the connection is very slow to kick in and cannot do so at all.

I have seen that sort of potential delay and process failure sometimes with external drives and my NAS but not that I can remember when using an internal drive.

Do you have any special settings for power management within the system?
>I have a vanilla install of Windows 10, 'Balanced - Active' power settings.

The log files may possibly offer some clues about what was happening at the time the system stopped responding.

Thanks for your reply, I appreciate it.

HTH.


Grant
User avatar
chadchat
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:17 am
Location: Sweden

Re: Issue Where I Lose Work

Postby SFA » Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:29 pm

I would have to agree that an option to reject the system drive does seem odd.

However I am on Win 7 still so have no way check whether this is a generic Win 10 "feature".

I also note that you mention losing work.

Now C1 in general will update changes immediately - certainly for edit information. For possible changes to Preview files and so on (usually related to size rather than edits as I see things), there may be some aspect of re-writing in something more like a "batch" once C1 gets an indication that work seems to have finished and something fundamental has changed but one normally only sees a "saving" message appearing when closing an edit session (or at least that is how things are using sessions).

So if you find you are losing a significant amount of edit history something unusual may be happening. Perhaps the work is bing saved to memory in the hope of writing it at the end of the edits but that option has become unavailable so neither the instant update nor the save at end of editing options are possible?

C1 will have loaded as many images as it can justify into working memory to allow fast access to images. Some years ago I read something to suggest that it also tries to predict and so pre-load anything not already loaded that you might be about to access (when using sessions - not sure about catalogues since they are typically larger anyway and pre-loading may be handled differently.)

Now that's relatively easy in a folder because all of the folder content is likely to be loaded and pre-prepared.

Moving to a new folder may require a fresh assessment of that folder and so nothing is pre-loaded. Perhaps. If the software heads that way and does not get a response and there is no timeout set for the action (can't realistically set a time out for everything and in any case if things have stopped responding a timeout check might not work anyway) then you could see the results you see. It's all a bit strange though. It may be worth using Windows facilities to run memory and disk checks as a precaution and to be able to say that they have been done even if they report no problems.

Otherwise I think it may be time to see if the C1 or Windows event logs and the more specific C1 log files offer any clues.

In the C1 "Window" menu there is an "Event Log" option.

This will list the recent C1 related Events recorded - usually things like "Started" but also some problems from time to time.

It may be worth checking this to see if there are any strange messages (a freeze up may mean that not messages are written of course). Click on a message line for details to appear in the box below.

You can also set a tick box to have the Event window open when an event is reported.

I have no idea if this will help with your specific problem but it may be worth ticking it anyway to see if it does.


HTH.

Grant
SFA
 
Posts: 7724
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:32 pm

Re: Issue Where I Lose Work

Postby chadchat » Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:30 am

I do feel reassured by your description of C1's extensive efforts to save work in real time, and it does suggest why I notice the issue as I move to a new folder. Perhaps I overstate how much work I'm losing when this happens, as you can imagine it's difficult to know exactly, but I have noticed for instance that all the color tags I've applied in a sit down session with C1 have been lost due to this.
I had an earlier issue that seems to have been resolved with the upgrade to 20 where using Alt +Del to permanently delete a selection would often cause a crash, and where, again, I would lose some work such as ratings being applied.

Event log doesn't indicate anything at this point but I'll keep an eye on it.

Thank you again!
User avatar
chadchat
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:17 am
Location: Sweden

Re: Issue Where I Lose Work

Postby David532 » Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:09 pm

NNN636158350337990780 wrote:
SFA wrote:
So there could be a system issue where for some reason or because of some setting for the connection to the "memory", wherever that connection might take things, is not working at that moment (on my WIndows system that happens from time to time when I am running out of disk space having filled it up to its operational limits.)
>Obviously I don't know the ins and outs of the system at this level, but it does feel like something in that direction. I did notice that my internal drive is listed under the Windows taskbar in the 'Safely Remove Hardware and Eject Media' as a device I'm able to eject, and I thought that was odd.



Grant


That could be contributing to your problem, this is the advice from Microsoft

Internal SATA devices (HDDs or SSDs) may show as removable media in your task bar.


Cause
Whether or not a device is considered removable is determined by your system’s BIOS and how it marks the various SATA ports on the motherboard. The inbox driver directly inspects SATA ports and considers devices connected to those ports marked “external” as removable devices. Not all storage drivers do this, which can be a potential cause for corruption or data loss.
Resolution
First, check for and install available BIOS updates from your PC manufacturer. If none are available, you can follow these steps to override the way the inbox driver surfaces devices on certain ports:

Open a command prompt with administrator privileges.
In the command prompt window, type the following command in hit Enter: devmgmt.msc
Under Disk Drives, identify the SATA device you would like the inbox driver to consider internal and open properties for this device by right-clicking and selecting Properties.
Note the bus number from the properties overview (“1” in the below example).

Device type: Disc drives
Manufacture: (Standard disc drives)
Location: Bus number 1, Target Id 0, LUN 0



For Windows 8 and later:
Type the following command in the previously opened command prompt and hit Enter:

reg.exe add “HKLM\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\storahci\Parameters\Device” /f /v TreatAsInternalPort /t REG_MULTI_SZ /d x

Where x corresponds to the Bus Number you noted in step 4.

The format above is misleading there is a space between /v and TreatAsInternalPort not a new line

Hope this helps

Dave

Note you are hacking the registrary here so take great care and only follow this advice if you are experienced in registry editing.
User avatar
David532
 
Posts: 342
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:31 pm
Location: Thornbury, Uk

Re: Issue Where I Lose Work

Postby David532 » Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:06 pm

David532 wrote:
NNN636158350337990780 wrote:
SFA wrote:
So there could be a system issue where for some reason or because of some setting for the connection to the "memory", wherever that connection might take things, is not working at that moment (on my WIndows system that happens from time to time when I am running out of disk space having filled it up to its operational limits.)
>Obviously I don't know the ins and outs of the system at this level, but it does feel like something in that direction. I did notice that my internal drive is listed under the Windows taskbar in the 'Safely Remove Hardware and Eject Media' as a device I'm able to eject, and I thought that was odd.



Grant


That could be contributing to your problem, this is the advice from Microsoft

Internal SATA devices (HDDs or SSDs) may show as removable media in your task bar.


Cause
Whether or not a device is considered removable is determined by your system’s BIOS and how it marks the various SATA ports on the motherboard. The inbox driver directly inspects SATA ports and considers devices connected to those ports marked “external” as removable devices. Not all storage drivers do this, which can be a potential cause for corruption or data loss.
Resolution
First, check for and install available BIOS updates from your PC manufacturer. If none are available, you can follow these steps to override the way the inbox driver surfaces devices on certain ports:

Open a command prompt with administrator privileges.
In the command prompt window, type the following command in hit Enter: devmgmt.msc
Under Disk Drives, identify the SATA device you would like the inbox driver to consider internal and open properties for this device by right-clicking and selecting Properties.
Note the bus number from the properties overview (“1” in the below example).

Device type: Disc drives
Manufacture: (Standard disc drives)
Location: Bus number 1, Target Id 0, LUN 0



For Windows 8 and later:
Type the following command in the previously opened command prompt and hit Enter:

reg.exe add “HKLM\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\storahci\Parameters\Device” /f /v TreatAsInternalPort /t REG_MULTI_SZ /d x

Where x corresponds to the Bus Number you noted in step 4.

The format above is misleading there is a space between /v and TreatAsInternalPort not a new line

Hope this helps

Dave

Note you are hacking the registrary here so take great care and only follow this advice if you are experienced in registry editing.


Here is the microsoft link that I cut and pasted the above from

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/3083627/internal-sata-drives-show-up-as-removeable-media

and here is another useful thread on the same subject

https://www.tenforums.com/drivers-hardware/103068-sata-hdd-ssd-shown-removable.html

Dave
User avatar
David532
 
Posts: 342
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:31 pm
Location: Thornbury, Uk

Re: Issue Where I Lose Work

Postby chadchat » Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:04 pm

Big thanks David.
I listed a handful of ports as internal, oddly though it's still listed as removable.
I'll follow your lead and search a bit further. I suspect though, as strange as it seems, it's a feature rather than a big with Windows 10.
User avatar
chadchat
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:17 am
Location: Sweden

Re: Issue Where I Lose Work

Postby jglaser757 » Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:03 pm

WARNING to those that use use Acronis as an internal daily automatic backup. 6-8 months ago I started to get notifications of missing edited files( I had the side car edit and original files but they were not linked). Contacted support and got generic email discussing solutions and how to locate them. Tried that, found a few,but still was missing fully edited images. Ignored issue because of traveling and life etc. Also found some more with a file search and redid a few of them. Jump to a few months later and more are missing. In fact, I notice all my edited images are missing. At same time I sent a new email to support while away again hoping to get answer ot some sort of solution. Well, I removed my backup software, Acronis , by chance and everything is back to normal. No missing files indicated . I obviously had some setting that removed or unlinked the two. OR Acronis backup software is not a good combination. WHEW!
jglaser757
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 5:33 pm

Re: Issue Where I Lose Work

Postby chadchat » Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:37 am

For the record I've had several crashes since my last post, one where C1 went dead as I've described, another time where I selected all those images I'd tagged red and hit ALT + DEL. Both times I lost around 20 mins work. Disheartening.
User avatar
chadchat
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:17 am
Location: Sweden

Re: Issue Where I Lose Work

Postby NN636079918630780651UL » Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:23 am

Hi,

I had the same issue where I am in WIndows 10 and it just had an update, I would open C1, do several HOURS of work on images, then when I wanted to take a break, I would close it , and C1 would crash when closing, get hung up, and give an error that it couldn't write to my drive.
I discovered that Windows 10 had a nasty "security" feature regarding "controlled folders" and I had to go into Windows 10 Settings and disable this over-protective feature.

After that, I was able to open C1, do my work, close it out, re-open C1, and it successfully saved my previous session edits. I hope this helps you. Apparently Windows 10 unilaterally decided that ANY program, at least on my system, needed permission to write to my drive, so I disabled this over-protective security function, and this remedied my issue with losing editing work.
Search for "Protected Folders" or "controlled folder access" in Windows 10. This setting relates to "ransonware" and by default it is turned on. I personally stay away from shady software and shady sites while using Windows and have never had an issue.
Try that and see what those settings are, and if those settings are blocking C1 from writing to your drive. In my case, it had blocked ANY image editing software from writing to the drive, so any edits I was doing in C1, or Affinity Photo, etc were all giving errors when I would close out, and then when re-opening the programs, all my previous work was gone. It was extremely frustrating.

Cheers!
-Randy
NN636079918630780651UL
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:45 am

Re: Issue Where I Lose Work

Postby chadchat » Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:18 pm

You gave me a glimmer of hope there Randy, it does sound like it's in the same ball park. Unfortunately the feature was already turned off in my settings. Thanks for your post though!
User avatar
chadchat
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:17 am
Location: Sweden

Re: Issue Where I Lose Work

Postby gusferlizi » Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:13 pm

Start a "Session" to test browse/edit your images and see if the crashing behaviour persists.

Do not import images. Use the system tree feature to browse your existent image folders.

In Session mode, Capture One will create a 'sidecar' folder inside each image folder to store the editing/preview values for those specific images.

Will not carry over any previous editing, and will be completely disconnected from your catalog.
User avatar
gusferlizi
 
Posts: 480
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:04 am
Location: London, England


Return to Capture One 20.x Software for Windows



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests