Issue C1 20.0.2 and Open With plugin

Discussions, questions, comments and suggestions regarding Capture One PRO, Capture One PRO For Sony / Fujifilm, Capture One for Phase One and Capture One Express For Sony / For Fujifilm 20.x for Windows

Re: Issue C1 20.0.2 and Open With plugin

Postby SFA » Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:18 pm

Samoreen,

Yes I have no doubt that I will never convince you and I suspect that the Capture One team will not convince you either BUT nor am I convinced about the claimed benefits (for many users) of having to define from scratch some sort of external application management program.

I'll ignore LR and PS and the rest of the Adobe family. If Adobe cannot or did not provide tight integration throughout their suite of products one would have to wonder why.

Firstly "Open" with from the Menus or via Right Click.

It's a simple instruction to open file with a different application. That application has its own parameters about what to do with such a file on opening. In general I don't really see (for any applications I can think of that might be invoked from C1 for entirely unconnected processing) the need for any parameters at all to be sent from C1.

Secondly "Edit with".

Typical parameters can be established during the "Edit With" process and appear to be "sticky" for that external target until from one use to the next.

What you seem to be asking for within that concept is an option to have different predefined parameters available for a listed external "Edit with" candidate and be able to choose between them if required rather than have to change the parameters separately at the time of use. Is that correct?

If it IS correct than the OTHER "Open with" option which is part of the Output Process Recipe seems to offer a solution. (It should perhaps be referred to as "Edit with" BUT is not quite the assumed pseudo plug-in functionality that the "Edit with" offers.

So one could have multiple Recipes for a given target "plug-in/external editor" and simply select the one required, hit the Process key and obtain "Edit with" functionality (but without the assumption, AFAIK, that on closing the external editor the resulting file will be saved back to the folder of origin.)

So far as I understand your requests to date that pretty much covers the requirement as far as already available functionality in C1 is concerned.

There might be some tweaks to be suggested and it might be that the Recipe based functionality could be included via other options - added to "Edit with" perhaps - but it does seem to exist.

For a moment forgetting about the "management of the plug-ins", am I missing something critical about the available features (irrespective of where they are to be found.)?


Moving to the main part of the subject. (and ignoring Adobe products for the reasons mentioned above)

I took a closer look at Affinity photo and what it offers for Edit With, Open With and plug-ins.

So far I have not found a reference to "Edit with" or "Open with".

Since is does not offer a DAM function I would conclude that "Open with" is an irrelevant concept for Affinity at this time.

"Edit with" looks like it would be included into the Plug-in manager to be found in the Preferences.

By default the Management window open the "Plug-Ins" folder where it expects to find Photoshop plug-ins. No surprise since Affinity is basically a Photoshop lookalike with a RAW file "Developer" module included. So somewhat akin to PS and LR but without the LR DAM facilities.

Having no PS plug-ins on my system the window in Affinity is blank.

So far as I can tell there is currently no external "Interoperability" available other than with other Affinity applications.

This probably explains why any development rationale that might seek to offer pre-identified (via Windows File Associations) applications of potential interest are not considered in any way.

I'll have to go looking for another example of best practise.

But, PS plug-in compatibility excepted, my view on a "Manager" for external applications for use with "Edit With" or "Open With" (Either version of Open with) is as follows.

If the application developer has identified the type of files that the application might be able to work with and registered that information with MS Windows I think that is more likely helpful rather than unhelpful. It means I have to do nothing other than browse a list and select which applications I may be interest to use more often than not. Easily managed.

If I install a new application which self identifies I can add it to the list in very few keyclicks - perhaps removing others that it replaces. It takes second and I'm not likely to do it often - but other might so that have even greater benefits of speed.

If I want to include an application that is NOT self identified to Windows but that I know has some compatibility and so I wish to use it, I have to go and browse to the application and select it. If it's a one-off activity I may choose to do that at run-time if I am likely to use it multiple times I can browse and then add it to my "approved" list via the Preferences > Plug-in manager. After which it will be a readily available option without having to go and find it again.

If I want choose (potentially) different but frequently used parameters each time I use it I can set up a Process Recipe (or several) and select the newly added program form the available list in the "Open with" box of the Recipe definition. Then select and run the recipe (as a batch if required) to send the file, with parameters, to the external program.

Yes, I realise that there are more closely coupled "Plug-ins" for C1 and some of those may indeed benefit for parameters that are not a normal part of a recipe being passed on but then that is why those plug-ins have their own developments and typically require some form of funding to make use of them.

To summarise;

From my perspective using Windows the ability to manage compatible applications (via Preferences) and choose which should be listed and promoted in a "select from" list is well covered and greatly assisted by not having to find and connect all of them from scratch. It is simple enough, IMO, for even the least tech inclined user to be able to feel comfortable with it in most cases using recent software.

In principle the type of features being suggested already seem to exist for typical "Edit with" applications.

They may not be collected into one central management application but they are available, generally, with a context sensitive deployment.

There may be some further suggestions for refinement of functionality and its location that could benefit users. That might also be something that is best offered with the benefit of context for use. The most obvious one might be the option to add an output recipe selection to the "Edit with" menu/right-click feature (limited to only those recipes that have an an application identified in their "Open with" field.

The addition of further parameters to the recipe might be another option although anything really specific and detailed might be better dealt with as a dedicated plug-in instead

By the way, for your point 1 - what is "slowly rebuilt" referring to. I can't think of any connection to the available application list that I have seen that I would categorise as "slowly rebuilt". I am genuinely puzzled by the observation.

If you have a usable application that does not self identify to Windows (I cannot think of one on my system though I might experiment with any application of course) then that anomaly is simple enough to rectify by using Windows file associations to make it self identify. It''s a one-off activity (usually).

I'm not sure why there is (for most people) a need to differentiate between lists for Open with and Edit with.

When I use either function I am usually clear in my mind what I intend to do (unless just undertaking some random experimentation.)

That said one might add a could add a couple of qualifying flags to the entries, I suppose, if usage was to be restricted by type of usage and application. It sounds like you may use rather a lot of external applications of one sort or another. Perhaps more than most people?

Are you perhaps applying a lot of separate plug-ins to the same image but doing it one at a time via Edit with? Or something like that?

Grant
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Re: Issue C1 20.0.2 and Open With plugin

Postby BeO » Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:49 pm

The bug must be fixed, if it occurs on several machines, I believe Franz1 nailed it.

We can not conclude though that P1 has failed in regression testing as this bug does not occur on all machines. Not on my either, btw.

A failure of senior management or alike saying is not justified, not in this aerea discussed here.

If the browse option does not remember an application and there is no way to keep it in the lust thatv is a major annoyance for some, I can understand.

Tweaking / finetuning of this topic would be most welcome.

Not my priotity though, I am glad the management had other priorities e.g. The Luminance mask over an Extended LR like External application manager.

I have other open wishes though.

Id like to encourage everyone to submit feature request to enable the company to make good decicions, decisions based on number of people requesting.

Regards
BeO
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Re: Issue C1 20.0.2 and Open With plugin

Postby NNN635040576084044010 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:59 am

I have the issue as well on my Win 10 desktop I see every Nik plugin except Silver Efex Pro and on my Win 10 laptop I see no plugins at all despite installing Nik. Got this response which is not helpful at all.

I also don't see the Nik Collection as a program yet it is installed, bizzare..

New support team?

(Capture One)
Feb 10, 12:58 CET
Hi there,

In order to make applications appear in this list, you need to enable them as the default application depending on file type.

You can do this in Windows: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4028161/windows-10-change-default-programs
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Re: Issue C1 20.0.2 and Open With plugin

Postby Samoreen » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:00 am

NNN635040576084044010 wrote:(Capture One)
Feb 10, 12:58 CET
...
In order to make applications appear in this list, you need to enable them as the default application depending on file type.

You can do this in Windows: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4028161/windows-10-change-default-programs


LOL. If people from the C1 support team are able to make such stupid statements, we customers do have a problem.
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Re: Issue C1 20.0.2 and Open With plugin

Postby IanS » Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:32 am

NNN635040576084044010 wrote:I have the issue as well on my Win 10 desktop I see every Nik plugin except Silver Efex Pro and on my Win 10 laptop I see no plugins at all despite installing Nik. Got this response which is not helpful at all.

I also don't see the Nik Collection as a program yet it is installed, bizzare..

New support team?

(Capture One)
Feb 10, 12:58 CET
Hi there,

In order to make applications appear in this list, you need to enable them as the default application depending on file type.

You can do this in Windows: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4028161/windows-10-change-default-programs


I finally had the same response to my request from last year!

So the mechanism to add programs to the "edit with" plugin is to change the system wide default for a file type, really????

Imagine Programming 101 class. So Jones, your solution to adding a program to the edit list is to change the Operating System system wide defaults! 2 out of 10 must try harder.

Seriously, is anyone actually going to defend this practice?? This is in no way of coding professional software.

Capture One markets itself as the premier editing software and is priced accordingly. Users should be treated with more respect. The solution to this issue is very simple and does not require any significant investment in time or resources, refusing to even acknowledge it as a user issue is simply very bad management practice.
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Re: Issue C1 20.0.2 and Open With plugin

Postby BeO » Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:29 pm

Oh, once you follow their advice and use C1 as it was designed, whether you like it or not, it works as designed?

Oh, C1 is advertised to support NIK plugins?

Oh, NIk is supported on Win 10?
Must have missed that. DXO version?

Oh, there are people wanted to be treated with respect but post with an attitude of the opposite here?

Come on, I believe you can do better than this. Why can't we try to use this forum to actually help others, to discuss opinions and ideas in a nice or half-way neutral way.
Peace. Please.
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Re: Issue C1 20.0.2 and Open With plugin

Postby IanS » Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:43 pm

BeO wrote:Oh, once you follow their advice and use C1 as it was designed, whether you like it or not, it works as designed?

Oh, C1 is advertised to support NIK plugins?

Yes, C1 is advertised to support external programs.

Oh, NIk is supported on Win 10?
Must have missed that. DXO version?

Yes, NIK has been owned by DXO for a couple of years now and is compatible with Win 10 and shows up under the "edit with" menu if you change the Operating System defaults.

Oh, there are people wanted to be treated with respect but post with an attitude of the opposite here?

Come on, I believe you can do better than this. Why can't we try to use this forum to actually help others, to discuss opinions and ideas in a nice or half-way neutral way.
Peace. Please.


Are you saying that using a system that involves changing an Operating Systems applications default settings is a sensible approach? Compared to simply writing an "add program" and hopefully "remove program" subroutine? I know of no other image editing software that supports external programs that requires changing the Operating Systems default settings. They all use a simple "add program" routine. The Mac is designed to work this way and presumably they can't be bothered to write a subroutine for Windows?

Basic business school teaching in this connected social media world, teaches customer communication is key to success. Companies who do not follow this are rightly criticised. Capture Ones silence on this matter is damaging to them. We are paying customers who deserve to be treated correctly. Even just announcing that they recognise the situation but don't care would be better than ignoring their customers.

If the new management team think this is the way to go then fine, let's see how it plays out over time.
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Re: Issue C1 20.0.2 and Open With plugin

Postby NNN635040576084044010 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:09 pm

I have fired back that this issue needs to be escalated, it appears that only a basic understanding of Win 10 is at play here, hence a new support team?. This C1 is expensive and the vast majority of users whether it be Mac or Win are experienced users! Hope? to hear back soon we'll see?

On another issue I find that the program lacks some of the basic Win functionality. I have heard from them in the past that they plan to "make it more Win friendly"
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Re: Issue C1 20.0.2 and Open With plugin

Postby BeO » Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:03 pm

Hi IanS,

I am not saying that what you propose is not reasonable, it a different approach and maybe it is the better approach. Regarding advantages of the current approach SFA Grant has elobarated on this already, I believe it was in this thread.

I am wondering a bit about two things.

1. With the current approach, what exactly is the downside you have, and with which application exactly, and can't it be made to work even if you consider it as an inferior approach. That is a serious question not rhetoric.

2. The expectation towards the "company", whatever its name is. What makes this proposed new feature for external program management (new for C1) so special or different to any other feature request, which seems to justify being so upset for some. I don't get it. Would it really be such a big problem for the majority of the customers I would assume it's being addressed very soon, or should already have been. I just don't see floods af people here complaining about this specific item, only a few, and that's the only source customer overview I have. Maybe the floods are on Facebook? (I'm not part of the Zuckerberg imperium.)

Regards
BeO
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Re: Issue C1 20.0.2 and Open With plugin

Postby IanL » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:22 pm

BeO wrote:1. With the current approach, what exactly is the downside you have, and with which application exactly, and can't it be made to work even if you consider it as an inferior approach. That is a serious question not rhetoric.


I'm not the person you asked this of but I do have an answer. The downside is this: I have my system setup with a viewer for many file types: IrfanView. When I double click on a file in File Explorer I expect that tool to start up and show me the image. I left the default OS viewer in the list as well. Turns out there a couple of other tools that show up as having association to various image file types and I'm OK with that when I am browsing around my HD with File Explorer. When I am "editing with" in C1 there is really only one application I want in that list Affinity. Using C1 to view images in IrfanView, the OS default viewer or Paint.Net is simply put distracting and pointless.

The downside is clutter and choices that I don't want or need. The solutions is to adjust the way the OS works for one application. Not a very good solution.

BeO wrote:2. The expectation towards the "company", whatever its name is. What makes this proposed new feature for external program management (new for C1) so special or different to any other feature request, which seems to justify being so upset for some. I don't get it. Would it really be such a big problem for the majority of the customers I would assume it's being addressed very soon, or should already have been. I just don't see floods af people here complaining about this specific item, only a few, and that's the only source customer overview I have.


It is true that there are some raw nerves here these days and perhaps we could decide not to keep bringing up these kinds of annoyances. Or the company could make a statement that they plan to make changes. Or other forum goers could just recognize that it's at the least goofy and not say "what is your problem anyway" every time someone brings it up :-). Those are all ways this cycle could be brought to an end. :-)
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Re: Issue C1 20.0.2 and Open With plugin

Postby BeO » Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:56 pm

IanL wrote:When I am "editing with" in C1 there is really only one application I want in that list Affinity. Using C1 to view images in IrfanView, the OS default viewer or Paint.Net is simply put distracting and pointless.

The downside is clutter and choices that I don't want or need. The solutions is to adjust the way the OS works for one application. Not a very good solution.


Hi IanL,

1. So you would like to have just one app in the list, no need to choose then. For people who have installed many apps associated with the file type, the issue is that the sub menu list shows them all which can be very long depending on the number of apps. Understand, a user convenience thing, it can be annoying if you use Edit With very often. The thread is about a non working "Open WIth Plugin" though.

As possible solution (for the convenience feature) would be if one could deselect the apps for Edit With just as you can do in the Open With Plugin in Preferences. And if the last parameters would be remembered for each app separately. That would serve the majority of use cases I think. The Windows apps associated with the file type could stay as the complete list from which you can deselect. Newly added apps register there too. Applications which are not installed in Windows (portable applications) should be remembered when "browse" is used and would also appear in the list, though I do not know a portable app of interest yet.

But I think it really comes down to prioritization, no company has unlimited resources and prioritization is important. Even "small things" can add up to considerable effort and risk of breaking existing functionality.

2. I think everyone can defend his position, that is legitimate. Both sides imo. It should be respectful though, member to member but also member to company, they are individuals after all who deserve the same respect as all of us.

Company policy always was not to disclose anything for future patches or releases, we all know this. One might like this or not, I do not, I think a patch planning for urgent bugs should be communicated, and I also would like to see a roadmap though I fully understand that they don't share their roadmap with the public, which we are.

So, for now, I hope the OPs issue will be resolved soon.

Regards
BeO
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Re: Issue C1 20.0.2 and Open With plugin

Postby IanS » Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:13 pm

BeO wrote:
IanL wrote:When I am "editing with" in C1 there is really only one application I want in that list Affinity. Using C1 to view images in IrfanView, the OS default viewer or Paint.Net is simply put distracting and pointless.

The downside is clutter and choices that I don't want or need. The solutions is to adjust the way the OS works for one application. Not a very good solution.


Hi IanL,

1. So you would like to have just one app in the list, no need to choose then. For people who have installed many apps associated with the file type, the issue is that the sub menu list shows them all which can be very long depending on the number of apps. Understand, a user convenience thing, it can be annoying if you use Edit With very often. The thread is about a non working "Open WIth Plugin" though.

As possible solution (for the convenience feature) would be if one could deselect the apps for Edit With just as you can do in the Open With Plugin in Preferences. And if the last parameters would be remembered for each app separately. That would serve the majority of use cases I think. The Windows apps associated with the file type could stay as the complete list from which you can deselect. Newly added apps register there too. Applications which are not installed in Windows (portable applications) should be remembered when "browse" is used and would also appear in the list, though I do not know a portable app of interest yet.

But I think it really comes down to prioritization, no company has unlimited resources and prioritization is important. Even "small things" can add up to considerable effort and risk of breaking existing functionality.

2. I think everyone can defend his position, that is legitimate. Both sides imo. It should be respectful though, member to member but also member to company, they are individuals after all who deserve the same respect as all of us.

Company policy always was not to disclose anything for future patches or releases, we all know this. One might like this or not, I do not, I think a patch planning for urgent bugs should be communicated, and I also would like to see a roadmap though I fully understand that they don't share their roadmap with the public, which we are.

So, for now, I hope the OPs issue will be resolved soon.

Regards
BeO


Hi BeO

All that is required is a sub routine that adds programs to the edit in plugin without requiring users to change the OS's default application. As with every other image editing program. This is not a resource intensive request, it is a very minor change.

Consider the silliness of the current situation:

How would you remove a program from the edit in plug in? I have an entry which appeared for some reason that doesn't work. Obviously some kind of install corruption. Obviously I have unticked the relevant box so that it doesn't show up in the right click menu. Should I want to remove this entry the current C1 approach would mean uninstalling C1 and reinstalling. Does this sound sensible?

One of the programs listed in the Open with plugin is C1! You really can't make these things up.

With such a simple issue to solve there must be a reason why the issue is not even acknowledged, let alone fixed. These situations normally come down to a person issue.

For example when LR was developed the guy in charge had a "anything but Adobe" attitude. This is why the crop function in LR works the opposite way round to PS. This is also why the local adjustments are of the brush and pin type rather than layers, for which Adobe is famous for. This works to C1's advantage because LR uses a layer functionality for local adjustments but wraps it in an awful UI compared to layers in C1.

I can only guess because C1 won't comment and in the absence of comment it is fair for paying customers to comment, that it is a "this works on Mac fine, if they don't like it get a Mac".

I am a big fan of C1 and only want to see it get better but that does not mean I will give a pass to poor programming / personal bias from a company. I hoped for more from a more focussed management team.

In the absence of management leadership in this connected age, only enthusiastic users making the situation clear and providing information / feedback to more progressive members of the team, are we likely to see an improvement in this area. All of my comments have been made to help improve an excellent program.
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Re: Issue C1 20.0.2 and Open With plugin

Postby SFA » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:00 pm

IanS wrote:
All that is required is a sub routine that adds programs to the edit in plugin without requiring users to change the OS's default application. As with every other image editing program. This is not a resource intensive request, it is a very minor change.



Indeed.

And if Windows allows people to create the association easily that would be job done much more easily than having to go and find (the right version of) a program somewhere in the depths of a system.

But for some reason, in Win 7 at least, the only we seems to have to make the association using Windows is easy enough but also connects to the change of the default application associated with a file type.

So one extra step is required to reset the default to whatever it we before - if required. It takes a second. Clumsy, certainly, but not a big deal. And there may be other, non-invasive for Windows, ways of achieving the objective about which I am not aware.

Once the interim "approved" list of applications for a file type s known to Windows the C1 Plug-in manager provides the application management facilities most people here seem to want.

Unless, of course, the requirement of for dedicated PS plug-ins to be available.

That might require access via PS or Affinity as the "with" program.
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Re: Issue C1 20.0.2 and Open With plugin

Postby BeO » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:13 pm

Hi IanS, without a doubt, we all want C1 to improve. The new forum seems to have new features request section with a voting button, btw....
:P
Still I do not see what you see, I also have an OpenWith plugin, but no Editwith plugin. Where can I get this?

I do not have C1 in the Openwith plugin program list.

And if I can untick a program, that is sufficient for me personally, I do not need to remove it necessarily. I have other desires re. new features.

I find repeating myself, so I stop here in this thread, else it might get to boring for other readers. :|

Regards
BeO
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