Layer madness

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Re: Layer madness

Postby IanL » Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:45 pm

Horseoncowboy wrote:it is simply telling that I have not read one sentence why this change is so great and useful maybe you are the first one which enlightens me.


LOL how about eight posts above. Here is a link if you have trouble finding it https://forum.phaseone.com/En/viewtopic.php?f=78&t=37352&p=172533#p172533

Where I point out why the new way is better and strongly state:
IanL wrote:Sorry they moved your cheese but there is no successful argument that this is worse than the old way!


So in case you missed my point here is once sentence on why this is so great: "The new way of copying layers is great, it is now possible to usefully copy layers to new images. This will save me so much work."

Sorry that was two sentences. :lol:
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Re: Layer madness

Postby ericstaud » Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:29 pm

I prefer the previous version of copy and paste. I only use copy and paste to match ALL the settings from one image to another. Once I've made adjustments to my primary image I copy and paste those settings to the other images. If I go back and make a change to the primary image, I copy and paste again. Then maybe I'll make another change and then copy and paste again. With the new tool behavior, each time I copy and paste settings, the layers double on all but my primary image.

With the new behavior, I must first select all the secondary images, Reset Layers adjustments, then paste from the primary. Not the end of the world, but definitely more steps to get to the same outcome.
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Re: Layer madness

Postby Horseoncowboy » Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:00 am

ericstaud wrote:I
With the new behavior, I must first select all the secondary images, Reset Layers adjustments, then paste from the primary. Not the end of the world, but definitely more steps to get to the same outcome.


... but in the eyes of p1 this has made working with layers much faster (YouTube) . funny no ? but in their layer tutorial not one word about this wonderful improvment......

maybe I have not discovered what the benefit of being able to copy just one layer is because working with layers and masks extenssivly in the past years i always use C1 to make images with similar contained look similar which demands that all layers and mask are copied too.

but I´m open to learn so what is a practial scenario where the new behaviour outweighs the disadvantage ?
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Re: Layer madness

Postby NN635680879799322049UL » Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:27 pm

ericstaud wrote:I prefer the previous version of copy and paste. ...With the new tool behavior, each time I copy and paste settings, the layers double on all but my primary image.

With the new behavior, I must first select all the secondary images, Reset Layers adjustments, then paste from the primary. Not the end of the world, but definitely more steps to get to the same outcome.


Perhaps what is needed is an option to replace versus add layers not the mandatory add layers behavior. That should not be a difficult programming change for version 20.1
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Re: Layer madness

Postby Ian3 » Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:36 pm

At least the new behaviour is non-destructive in that the old layers are not automatically lost as they were before, though you can remove them manually if you want to.

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Re: Layer madness

Postby Horseoncowboy » Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:35 pm

Ian3 wrote:At least the new behaviour is non-destructive in that the old layers are not automatically lost as they were before, though you can remove them manually if you want to.

Ian


so following your logic all other copied and applied adjustments are destructive because they overwrite the old setting no ? and as a result LR is the only nondestructive raw converter because it offers a history ...;-)
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Re: Layer madness

Postby Ian3 » Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:45 pm

Horseoncowboy wrote:
Ian3 wrote:At least the new behaviour is non-destructive in that the old layers are not automatically lost as they were before, though you can remove them manually if you want to.

Ian


so following your logic all other copied and applied adjustments are destructive because they overwrite the old setting no ? and as a result LR is the only nondestructive raw converter because it offers a history ...;-)

No, I suppose what I am saying is that if the situation were the opposite way round (so that it used to add extra layers but had now changed to replacing existing layers) work could be lost. At least this way round, if you find the new way it works annoying, at least your work is not over-written.

It is difficult, because users used to complain that the old way could only copy all the layers as a job lot, and replace the ones that were already there - they would have liked to be able to copy a layer from one image to another in addition to what was already there. And now that is what we have and other users don't like it. You can't please all of the people all of the time, it seems.

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Re: Layer madness

Postby NN635680879799322049UL » Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:37 pm

Clearly they already have the code to replace layers (version 12) or add them (version 20). All we need is a choice of which to execute.So, could C1P layer copying be modified to provide a choice between adding or replacing layers in the target image(s) when copying layers?

Maybe if we all make the request, it will get some action, after they resolve the installation problems, tethering problems from OS10.15.2, and other bugs.

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Re: Layer madness

Postby IanL » Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:26 pm

Ian3 wrote:No, I suppose what I am saying is that if the situation were the opposite way round (so that it used to add extra layers but had now changed to replacing existing layers) work could be lost. At least this way round, if you find the new way it works annoying, at least your work is not over-written.


A point that has been made a few times now. He disagrees so adamantly that he is not really paying attention to that clear fact that the new way can be made to work for people that want to replace exiting layers and those that wan to add them. But the way it was could only satisfy those that want to replace exiting layers.
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Re: Layer madness

Postby Horseoncowboy » Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:53 am

IanL wrote:
Ian3 wrote:No, I suppose what I am saying is that if the situation were the opposite way round (so that it used to add extra layers but had now changed to replacing existing layers) work could be lost. At least this way round, if you find the new way it works annoying, at least your work is not over-written.


A point that has been made a few times now. He disagrees so adamantly that he is not really paying attention to that clear fact that the new way can be made to work for people that want to replace exiting layers and those that wan to add them. But the way it was could only satisfy those that want to replace exiting layers.


the argument you can make it work is theoretically BS and tells me you have no first hand practical experience. yes of course you can make it work, when you think wasting time to delete hundreds of useless layers with the same name every time you made a change of the layer settings is great. I very much think working with layers should be easy for everyone, for those who never process more than a handful of images and those who need to work with a few hundred and a lot of layers especially when a software is featured as the best "professional" tool.
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Re: Layer madness

Postby SFA » Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:00 pm

If putting forward a proposed enhancement should the rules for replacement be based solely on the Name given to a layer?

A question.

If one wishes to mass replace one of more layers for a large number of files, what sort of adjustment are being applied?

I quite regularly copy and paste 2 or 3 layers from one image to several others (as initial layer adds rather than revisions) but only on the basis that the images are all similar enough in the basic editing to accept the new layers without making them a huge mess. In many cases I will be adding the layers knowing the adjustments will be acceptable but the mask will need editing.

Most of my shoots are outdoors so things can change from shot to shot in ways that mean a single mass change exercise probably will not work over a large number of images in a way that might work wel for a controlled studio environment.

Now I could see a studio shoot having enough consistency in the files produced to allow a standard "Background" (in C1 terminology) level of settings which in turn would allow a standard set layers to be applied and maybe even using standardised masks - especially if Luminosity masking could be applied. Additionally a studio situation might well offer the best opportunities for deploying controlled and accurate naming conventions for layer replacement selection actions.

Is that the sort of situation that this overwrite mass change applies to?

If so it suggest that all images will end up being processed in the same way other than lens adjustments, cropping and similar.

So one approach would be to simply start from the basic image and copy and past all settings other than, perhaps, composition, and apply them to a new variant. With that done, checked and approved simply promote the new variant to be Primary or select and delete all of the original variants.

No complications with layer naming and matching using that approach.

Available now.

However, if the practical operational need is somewhere between that and the development of a layer name based replacement process then there may be some additional complexity to cover off in the design of the enhancement.

That would be especially true if layer masks need to be edited image by image or, perhaps more likely, the existing layers that are to be replaced are suitably masked but the settings need to change. In such a situation I don't think replacing the layers OR adding new ones would clearly be the best route to obtaining the desired result.


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Re: Layer madness

Postby Horseoncowboy » Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:59 pm

grant,

here are two real world scenarios :

1. outdoor product

part of the look we are after includes real motion blur so we shoot with models moving in the scene, a lot of times, with the camera on a tripod. later I or the graphic designer will make a composition in PS. but even when we only use a few images for the final composition everything needs to be processed to have the same look and appearance for the client and others in the creative process.


2. product studio

in the past I used the actus but now I moved to image stacking. the benefit of image stacking is I can use the optimal aperture of the lens and still get everything in focus and this makes a huge quality difference with todays high res cameras. but with this comes a shallow deep of field. the parts I shoot are often small too so I need a lot of images for just one still. i also shoot variants from slightly different angels or do small light adjustments. it is very easy to get a huge amount of images this way.

for the first scenario I use basic / HDR adjustments often with very selective masks to improve the product. in the studio shot I use the same type of adjustments but with gradients or soft brushes to balance contrast and apply some early D&B. a lot of the adjustments I apply during this process are subtile so it is normal for me to rework them, same goes for the layer masks and other settings.

the easiest solution to fix the problems for my type of workflow would be replace layers with the same name add layers with a different name. same logic as every OS uses.
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Re: Layer madness

Postby SFA » Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:25 pm

Horseoncowboy wrote:grant,

here are two real world scenarios :

1. outdoor product

part of the look we are after includes real motion blur so we shoot with models moving in the scene, a lot of times, with the camera on a tripod. later I or the graphic designer will make a composition in PS. but even when we only use a few images for the final composition everything needs to be processed to have the same look and appearance for the client and others in the creative process.


2. product studio

in the past I used the actus but now I moved to image stacking. the benefit of image stacking is I can use the optimal aperture of the lens and still get everything in focus and this makes a huge quality difference with todays high res cameras. but with this comes a shallow deep of field. the parts I shoot are often small too so I need a lot of images for just one still. i also shoot variants from slightly different angels or do small light adjustments. it is very easy to get a huge amount of images this way.

for the first scenario I use basic / HDR adjustments often with very selective masks to improve the product. in the studio shot I use the same type of adjustments but with gradients or soft brushes to balance contrast and apply some early D&B. a lot of the adjustments I apply during this process are subtile so it is normal for me to rework them, same goes for the layer masks and other settings.

the easiest solution to fix the problems for my type of workflow would be replace layers with the same name add layers with a different name. same logic as every OS uses.


That is pretty much what I would expect.

How do you deal with the masks you have already edited for existing layers when you replace the layer with another from a revised edit that may be using a different mask?

Or are the masks not critical to your needs for copying?


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Re: Layer madness

Postby Keith Reeder » Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:11 pm

Horseoncowboy wrote:the argument you can make it work is theoretically BS and tells me you have no first hand practical experience.

Lost your copy of "How To Win Friends And Influence People", I guess?

Regardless of your opinion, Ian is right - you can make it work. Nothing "theoretical" about it.

Just because you don't like the answer, that doesn't make it BS.
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Re: Layer madness

Postby Keith Reeder » Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:14 pm

Horseoncowboy wrote: I very much think working with layers should be easy for everyone, for those who never process more than a handful of images and those who need to work with a few hundred and a lot of layers especially when a software is featured as the best "professional" tool.

And I very much think that you should be using software specifically designed to do the kind of work you apparently do, instead of expecting Phase One (and everyone else) to bend to your personal preferences and make Capture One into a PhotoShop substitute.
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