Database management question

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Database management question

Postby NN635550633556125745UL » Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:07 pm

Hi All, perhaps it was in error that images were uploaded before stepping through the catalog/folder naming convention. Having more of a background with relational databases, thought it would be perhaps straight-forward or perhaps a wee bit arcane. The plan was to go through the steps to edit/rename the initial catalog and redistribute images into a created structure vs. the import date as the images were uploaded.

I hope that this is making sense. In a nutshell, wish to rename catalog/folders within the database and find little resources to facilitate this.

The online documentation and tutorials do not address this path of how to accomplish as well.
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Re: Database management question

Postby OddS » Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:15 pm

NN635550633556125745UL wrote:...I hope that this is making sense.


Not to me I am afraid.

NN635550633556125745UL wrote:In a nutshell, wish to rename catalog/folders within the database and find little resources to facilitate this.


I use C1 in session mode, not catalog mode, so please excuse my ignorant questions: Why do you need to rename folders within the database? How did you go about doing it? What is the result of your actions and how does it differ from the result you wanted?
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Re: Database management question

Postby SFA » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:16 pm

In addition to the questions posed by Odd S:

Were the images in another catalogue system before you created your C1 catalogue?

When you created the catalogue and imported did you choose the use 'Managed' files or 'Referenced'?

In theory in a catalogued database that doe not have to support any other cataloguing systems' existing file structure, there is no need to put anything into folders. From the human's point of view there is but not from the databases POV.

There are many other ways to catalogue (and so 'group') images based in contents and added tags in the files that folders are, at least in theory, an encumbrance rather than a benefit.

In your self grouped folders do you ever come across a situation where an images needs to be in 2 or more folders?


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Re: Database management question

Postby NN635550633556125745UL » Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:29 am

Hi Odd S,

As an example, replacing "Untitled Catalog" with a name such as "People" or Travels" with a folder set in each related to the main topic was the idea. Simply replacing "Untitled Catalog" with a name would be good for a start!
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Re: Database management question

Postby NN635550633556125745UL » Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:40 am

Hi Grant,

Thanks for your comments, will reply on a few points:

1. "Were the images in another catalogue system before you created your C1 catalogue? No, from first using C1 it has been a clean compilation imported from my camera's SD Card, have not manipulated internally to C1 or attempted an import from another system such as LR.

2."When you created the catalogue and imported did you choose the use 'Managed' files or 'Referenced'?" Strange, I have not encountered this. Being these have been direct imports, perhaps not a function encountered?

3. "In your self grouped folders do you ever come across a situation where an images needs to be in 2 or more folders? This has been a an option with some photo sets. However, I have copied and populated another folder with copies. Still, I think that I am operating in a primitive mode compared to what can be with an image shared to two or more folders.
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Re: Database management question

Postby OddS » Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:53 am

NN635550633556125745UL wrote:...Simply replacing "Untitled Catalog" with a name would be good for a start!


I'm still the ignorant one :idea: who keeps asking:

Why did you create a "nameless" (or Untitled Catalog) in the first place?

What happens if you close C1, rename the catalog file from "Untitled Catalog.cocatalogdb" to "My_preferred_name.cocatalogdb" using Windows Explorer and then just double click on that renamed file?

Remember to back up your catalog if you did not when closing C1...
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Re: Database management question

Postby NN635550633556125745UL » Fri Jun 07, 2019 10:52 am

Hi OddS,

"Untitled Catalog" is the default name. Believe me, I tried to rename it with the C1 app closed and it still does not allow claiming "the action can't be completed because the folder or a file in it is open in another program". Since there is no app visible in Task Manager to close, the app does not autostart, or otherwise allowing renaming after reboot... seems to be quite an indirect attribute to modify.
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Re: Database management question

Postby SFA » Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:53 pm

NN635550633556125745UL wrote:Hi Grant,

Thanks for your comments, will reply on a few points:

1. "Were the images in another catalogue system before you created your C1 catalogue? No, from first using C1 it has been a clean compilation imported from my camera's SD Card, have not manipulated internally to C1 or attempted an import from another system such as LR.

2."When you created the catalogue and imported did you choose the use 'Managed' files or 'Referenced'?" Strange, I have not encountered this. Being these have been direct imports, perhaps not a function encountered?

3. "In your self grouped folders do you ever come across a situation where an images needs to be in 2 or more folders? This has been a an option with some photo sets. However, I have copied and populated another folder with copies. Still, I think that I am operating in a primitive mode compared to what can be with an image shared to two or more folders.


1. Imported via a card reader or first imported from the SD card in the camera to your computer and then to be imported into C1? Or are you using one of the Fuji cameras that reportedly has a setting to allow direct import fomr the camera to C1 (not a normal feature historically as direct connection has been reserved for full Tethering where available.)

2. 'Referenced files' would be where you set the Import Destination to "Current Location".

If you have imported directly from the camera's SD card connection (see above) then Current Location would not be logical and so presumably not available. (I have no way to check that).

3. Creating full copies of original images and the edits is not really a great way to go in most cases and somewhat defeats the benefits of working with a database. There may occasionally be exceptions to that suggestion but in general the exception I can think of would, in my personal opinion, be better handled in other ways rather than multiple copes of the same file held in a catalogue structure based file system.


FWIW I don't have any problems renaming the catalogue file or its parent folder using Windows 7 and I can do that via Windows even with Capture One running, albeit with a Session open rather than another catalogue. I suspect you may have a background C1 program running (Backup option?) when trying to rename - or at least whether you have is something to check for.

If not that then perhaps some other glitch maybe to do with temporary work files that have not been removed for some reason. That's just a guess though. The Log files may offer better insight.


HTH.


Grant
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Re: Database management question

Postby OddS » Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:12 pm

NN635550633556125745UL wrote:...I tried to rename it with the C1 app closed and it still does not allow claiming "the action can't be completed because the folder or a file in it is open in another program".


I just created a catalog without giving a specific name to it, keeping the default "Untitled Catalog" name and imported some 30 images (referenced) and I waited a few seconds while C1 created previews.

I closed C1, navigated to and double clicked the file Untitled Catalog.cocatalogdb. That file is in a folder named Untitled Catalog, which may indicate that I should rename both the folder and the file. C1 opens the catalog and says "Untitled Catalog" at the top of the browser window and at the top of the viewer window on my second monitor. The Libary tool displays "Catalog: Untitled Catalog"

At this point I do not know if the displayed catalog name reflects the name of the catalog file or the name of the folder where the catalog file resides, they are both named "Untitled Catalog".

I close C1, rename the folder from "Untitled Catalog" to "Cat1" using Windows explorerer and then I double click the file that is still named "Untitled Catalog.cocatalogdb". Everything looks the same, the catalog name is still "Untitled Catalog". Thus, the folder name appears to be irrelevant.

I close C1, rename the file "Untitled Catalog.cocatalogdb" to "CatCat.cocatalogdb", and doubleclick the renamed file. C1 opens once again and now displays "CatCat" where it used to be "Untitled Catalog". This indicates to me that the catalog name is just the name of the catalog file. Rename the file to rename the catalog, no database action involved.

I use C1 Pro v12 on a Windows 10 PC, nothing fancy about it.

I have no idea why your Windows claims the catalog file is in use when it is not in use.
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Re: Database management question

Postby TommyDom » Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:55 am

I think I understand the original quest as I have had similar wants within C1.

I've tried using user collections to do some of this for me with OK success. Specifying my criteria in the filter is like setting up a database view, in my mind. Like dynamic views in RDBMS, it will spin through the filter matching to get my pile of pictures from the database. It would be nice to be able to have that filtering cached and updated for use without scanning the entire set of images. I have not fiddled with trying to do something different.

Some notes of clarification, I import leaving all images where they are, in a master file/directory structure on a drive that has everything sectioned off by the create date (<root drive and directory>/<year>/<MM-DD-YYYY>). A little redundant and not meeting proper 3rd normal form... I then have a spot by date where I can find images via the operating system tools. So no new copies of the actual images go anywhere and C1 keeps track of where the images are and all of the changes I implement to produce a final variant.

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Re: Database management question

Postby SFA » Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:03 am

TommyDom wrote:It would be nice to be able to have that filtering cached and updated for use without scanning the entire set of images. I have not fiddled with trying to do something different.



If you create a non-smart album that is what you will get but one then needs to 'manually' manage the album.

If you create a smart album then the system has to check to see if new files have been added or other files modified - perhaps by a sidecar synch for example.

Now one could open the catalogue (or session) as it was last known with an ready index and then work on the potential for updates to the album in the background (I think C1 does this in some situations or at least seems to be working with a cached collection of images which may not update immediately when a new image is added to a folder) but then people will complain that they have just added an image and C1 has not found it.

Or the checks can be performed first and a fully analysed (for all currently active and selected filters) can then be presented to the user. Smart albums are, in effect, filters.

Once a catalogue or session is open and the state of the filters is updated and loaded to memory all should be well but the time to make that happen - along with a few additional checks for catalogues to ensure that the system knows whether referenced images are on line and also loading the thumbnails and previews into memory - has to be allocated somewhere. So one can either preload with the checks running or pre-load form some sort of record of 'last known state' and then use tasks in the background to update the records and counts or simply do stuff on the fly.

User may perceive this as either as a slow load but relatively fast in operation or a fast load but relatively slow in operation.

My personal approach is to leave the systems running at all times, avoid the need to re-boot as much as possible and use hibernate rather than a shut down. I do this anyway, not because I need to for C1 but because it best fits the way I use my computer(s).

I also use sessions rather than a huge catalogue. I could, should I wish to, create a catalogue file from the sessions once I feel work is complete on them but for my purposes doing that does not seem to offer much potential beneficial return on the work required to do so unless I go back and add a lot of keyword or IPTC data to tens of thousands of old images.

YMMV.


HTH.


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Re: Database management question

Postby TommyDom » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:49 pm

Thanks for the suggestions, Grant. I will have a look to see what I have created.

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