Regenerating thumbnails everytime C1 is launched

Discussions, questions, comments and suggestions regarding Capture One PRO, Capture One PRO For Sony / Fujifilm, Capture One DB and Capture One Express For Sony / For Fujifilm 12.x

Regenerating thumbnails everytime C1 is launched

Postby xplatinum » Wed May 22, 2019 12:52 pm

I've always wondered what was the reasoning behind this behavior. I work with a single catalog of thousands of pictures and having to deal with the huge delay this causes is a deal breaker for me. I don't see the benefit of it and LR didn't do this.

My PC is not to blame. I have a Samsung 860 EVO SSD (considered to be one of the best on the market). CPU is an i7-7700k. GPU is a GTX 1080.

Everytime I start C1 the orange pie starts turning, filter results gradually populate and after a minute or so it's all done.
xplatinum
 
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:11 am

Re: Regenerating thumbnails everytime C1 is launched

Postby IanS » Wed May 22, 2019 4:22 pm

xplatinum wrote:I've always wondered what was the reasoning behind this behavior. I work with a single catalog of thousands of pictures and having to deal with the huge delay this causes is a deal breaker for me. I don't see the benefit of it and LR didn't do this.

My PC is not to blame. I have a Samsung 860 EVO SSD (considered to be one of the best on the market). CPU is an i7-7700k. GPU is a GTX 1080.

Everytime I start C1 the orange pie starts turning, filter results gradually populate and after a minute or so it's all done.


Check under the event log (Window menu) and see if any files are listed as faulty (unable to open). It has been my experience that C1 checks all of the files in the catalogue if there are any damaged files present. Even after you have removed them it checks for the next two launches. That has been my experience.

How many files are in our catalogue. C1Pro is slow for >50,000 for many people.

Ian
IanS
 
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:46 pm

Re: Regenerating thumbnails everytime C1 is launched

Postby xplatinum » Wed May 22, 2019 4:38 pm

I have around 6,000 photos. There's nothing in the event log. It really is C1 regenerating thumbnails because they are gradually appearing as it progresses. I see photos "popping up" in the viewer until it finishes.

I can reproduce this issue with a freshly created catalogue of all my photos.

edit : this is what I see for a good minute everytime I start C1. https://i.imgur.com/BNDeyNT.png
xplatinum
 
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:11 am

Re: Regenerating thumbnails everytime C1 is launched

Postby C-M-B » Thu May 23, 2019 10:25 pm

No this is the stupid normal behaviour of Capture One with Windows.

It seems like the sessions and cataloges don't keep the files indexed for whatever stupid and antiquated reason that is. So the thumbsnails (no typo because it's slow) are reloaded (though I don't think regenerated) every time and it really really sucks.

I'd suggest you contact support and them them it annoys you because the more people complain the more likely it is that it gets fixed.

And yes, I'm saying fixed because that behaviour is broken even if others claim it isn't.


Edit: and by the way, it's even worse with NAS drives.

My tipp: keep the amount of images per folder/collection below 2000. Otherwise you're in reload hell.
C-M-B
 
Posts: 410
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:57 pm

Re: Regenerating thumbnails everytime C1 is launched

Postby SFA » Fri May 24, 2019 12:08 pm

What you are seeing is C1 loading the basic thumbnails from disk into memory taking into account the current settings for any process recipe you may have active and doing whatever calculations it requires for Smart (i.e. dynamic) albums.

In other words it is setting up from where you last left the catalogue and checking that all files that are references are available.

The proposed manufacturer specification of your SSD is not entirely relevant here. It matters, in read and write terms, for large files - especially very large files - but file handling constrains the outright transfer speed performance of the drive for smaller files such as the thumbnails. Faster than non solid state drives of course but very unlikely to have the stellar speed you might be expecting. It's worth noting that all forms or storage - disk and ssd - offer different specifications of disk according to the purpose for them. If you want real retrieval speed (but relatively small capacity) on a corporate server you can buy it - at a price. You install that sort of disk in a desktop machine but if the other components are not geared to the same sort of operation you may not get the retrieval performance you expect. If you other hardware components ARE geared towards fast data retrieval you may find that they are not especially effective for image processing.

Spend enough money and you can probably come up with a system that does it all for you and saves a few minutes here and there.

Alternatively you could consider leaving C1 open most of the time. Or hibernate the system rather than shut down if shutting down is your normal habit.

I'm fairly sure that Phase have a reason for doing things as they do. Something I read some years ago (older version) seemed to suggest that the rationale was to take a little time at the point of opening (a session but the same applies to a catalogue I suspect) in order to prepare things for a faster editing experience. The alternative would be a faster initial load (highly impressive of course) but potentially slower basic editing operations.

I'm guessing that the user feedback had been that people can plan to open a session or catalogue and do something else while it is loading and preparing everything and that that has been deemed preferable to a slower experience when editing an image.

It is, in my opinion, interesting that for any application out there one can find comments by people who think it is 'blazing fast' but others who believe it is 'glacially slow' when compared with some other application for which other commenters perceive the exact opposite. So I fully expect this subject to persist well into the future no matter what design changes may or may not be applied.

As an aside, yesterday I briefly saw an on line video of someone using what I think you said was a cloud based photo editing application. The commentary seemed to suggest the person making the video was impressed with the speed at which things were happening and I suppose it was quite impressive for a cloud based application working with what seemed likely to be large files. But in absolute speed terms it looked like a throwback to pre-windows days and dial up modems. (Nearly.)

I guess the beauty or otherwise of 'speed' is an entirely personal thing.


Grant
Last edited by SFA on Sat May 25, 2019 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SFA
 
Posts: 7159
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:32 pm

Re: Regenerating thumbnails everytime C1 is launched

Postby C-M-B » Sat May 25, 2019 11:21 am

SFA wrote:What you are seeing is C1 loading the basic thumbnails from disk into memory taking into account the current settings for any process recipe you may have active and doing whatever calculations it requires for Smart (i.e. dynamic) albums.

In other words it is setting up fomr where y ou last left the catalogue and checking that all files that are references are available.

The proposed manufacturer specification of your SSD is not entirely relevant here. It matters, in read and write terms, for large files - especially very large files - but file handling constrains the outright transfer speed performance of the drive for smaller files such as the thumbnails. Faster than non solid state drives of course but very unlikely to have the stellar speed you might be expecting. It's worth noting that all forms or storage - disk and ssd - offer different specifications of disk according to the purpose for them. If you want real retrieval speed (but relatively small capacity) on a corporate server you can buy it - at a price. You install that sort of disk in a desktop machine but if the other components are not geared to the same sort of operation you may not get the retrieval performance you expect. If you other hardware components ARE geared towards fast data retrieval you may find that they are not especially effective for image processing.

Spend enough money and you can probably come up with a system that does it all for you and saves a few minutes here and there.

Alternatively you could consider leaving C1 open most of the time. Or hibernate the system rather than shut down if shutting down is your normal habit.

I'm fairly sure that Phase have a reason for doing things as they do. Something I read some years ago (older version) seemed to suggest that the rationale was to take a little time at the point of opening (a session but the same applies to a catalogue I suspect) in order to prepare things for a faster editing experience. The alternative would be a faster initial load (highly impressive of course) but potentially slower basic editing operations.

I'm guessing that the user feedback had been that people can plan to open a session or catalogue and do something else while it is loading and preparing everything and that that has been deemed preferable to a slower experience when editing an image.

It is, in my opinion, interesting that for any application out there one can find comments by people who think it is 'blazing fast' but others who believe it is 'glacially slow' when compared with some other application for which other commenters perceive the exact opposite. So I fully expect this subject to persist well into the future no matter what design changes may or may not be applied.

As an aside, yesterday I briefly saw an on line video of someone using what I think you said was a cloud based photo editing application. The commentary seemed to suggest the person making the video was impressed with the speed at which things were happening and I suppose it was quite impressive for a cloud based application working with what seemed likely to be large files. But in absolute speed terms it looked like a throwback to pre-windows days and dial up modems. (Nearly.)

I guess the beauty or otherwise of 'speed' is an entirely personal thing.


Grant



Sadly that's an antiquated way of doing that. The proper way would be to incorporate the thumbnails into the session/catalog file and avoid having to read thousands (!) of individual files.
I may have been usefull 10 years ago in order to reduce the file size of the sessions file or the catalog file - but these days it's not necessary any more. With SSDs and fast HDDs you can make those files (or something like a singular preview file) hundreds of MB or even a few GB large and they will load within moments.

Problem is that Capture One developers don't seem to be particularly interested in improving the underlying structure. But their competition is slowly bt surely getting ahead.
C-M-B
 
Posts: 410
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:57 pm

Re: Regenerating thumbnails everytime C1 is launched

Postby Mdelrossi_1 » Mon May 27, 2019 1:52 am

Mac user here, was thinking of building a PC for work.

In the catalog “file” on the Mac, there are previews built there. I did a test to see if moving from lightroom singular catalog to C1 would be worth it. The catalog got bigger as I remade previews bigger in pixel size, and smaller as I made the previews smaller. When I quit the program, I could right click on the catalog and find the previews.

Is this not how it is on windows?


Not trying to start a fight , just looking for info.
Thanks

mdr
Mdelrossi_1
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:05 pm

Re: Regenerating thumbnails everytime C1 is launched

Postby NNN636886416160700376 » Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:59 am

SFA wrote:I'm fairly sure that Phase have a reason for doing things as they do. Something I read some years ago (older version) seemed to suggest that the rationale was to take a little time at the point of opening (a session but the same applies to a catalogue I suspect) in order to prepare things for a faster editing experience. The alternative would be a faster initial load (highly impressive of course) but potentially slower basic editing operations.

I'm guessing that the user feedback had been that people can plan to open a session or catalogue and do something else while it is loading and preparing everything and that that has been deemed preferable to a slower experience when editing an image.


I don't think you're understanding the time this takes. If I were to open Capture One and a folder on my NAS with 1000 files in it, I would have to wait *hours* until it regenerated all the previews/thumbnails/whatever it's doing. Hours. And during the time it's generating those, the application is utterly unresponsive. I scroll with my mouse wheel, it scrolls 15 seconds later. I click on an image, it loads 10 seconds later (IF the preview has already been generated. If not, it's longer). The one time I launched Capture One without the drive mapped (accidentally) it loaded all thumbnails immediately. Anytime the drive is mapped it decides to re-do every single one.

This is not a design choice, it's entirely broken and a major issue on Windows. I'm trying to switch to Capture One because I actually do like it a lot better than Lightroom, but until this is resolved I'm stuck. It works just fine with the photos on my SSD, loads those previews very quickly, but there's no chance I can use an application that refuses to work with external or network drives.
NNN636886416160700376
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:20 am

Re: Regenerating thumbnails everytime C1 is launched

Postby Ian3 » Sun Jun 02, 2019 3:33 pm

It does seem to be the case that Capture One doesn't always work well with NAS. Some people seem to be able to make it work, but I'm not sure how.

Ian
Ian3
 
Posts: 3178
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:52 pm
Location: Bristol, England

Re: Regenerating thumbnails everytime C1 is launched

Postby SFA » Sun Jun 02, 2019 4:43 pm

NNN636886416160700376 wrote:
SFA wrote:I'm fairly sure that Phase have a reason for doing things as they do. Something I read some years ago (older version) seemed to suggest that the rationale was to take a little time at the point of opening (a session but the same applies to a catalogue I suspect) in order to prepare things for a faster editing experience. The alternative would be a faster initial load (highly impressive of course) but potentially slower basic editing operations.

I'm guessing that the user feedback had been that people can plan to open a session or catalogue and do something else while it is loading and preparing everything and that that has been deemed preferable to a slower experience when editing an image.


I don't think you're understanding the time this takes. If I were to open Capture One and a folder on my NAS with 1000 files in it, I would have to wait *hours* until it regenerated all the previews/thumbnails/whatever it's doing. Hours. And during the time it's generating those, the application is utterly unresponsive. I scroll with my mouse wheel, it scrolls 15 seconds later. I click on an image, it loads 10 seconds later (IF the preview has already been generated. If not, it's longer). The one time I launched Capture One without the drive mapped (accidentally) it loaded all thumbnails immediately. Anytime the drive is mapped it decides to re-do every single one.

This is not a design choice, it's entirely broken and a major issue on Windows. I'm trying to switch to Capture One because I actually do like it a lot better than Lightroom, but until this is resolved I'm stuck. It works just fine with the photos on my SSD, loads those previews very quickly, but there's no chance I can use an application that refuses to work with external or network drives.


Since it works fine with the SSD do you not think that the constraint might be with the NAS?

I have a NAS. I use sessions with, typically, something like 2,000 to 3,000 images.

When you open a session or a catalogue (likely more work to do with a catalogue) C1 is loading the thumbnails and previews into memory and checking for the settings so apply acording to the state of the session or catalogue when last closed or, if you have more than one catalogue or session open, the current state of the C1 settings allready in use.

It may also need to manage some memory if you are using multiple applications.

This is not too bad, usually, from an SSD but the load speed from an external USB3 disk is borderline (if you are used to SSDs) and a NAS ir much slower though just about usable once loaded. In my experience.

Now I run my NAS over wireless WiFi but working directly with wired network connection is not much faster and my experience with connecting USB3 drives directly to the NAS for straight transfer operations was always disappointingly slow per drive compared to expectations for disk performance stats. So I think it is probably a factor of the way the NAS works which is simply no fast with small files. (Nor are SSD'd compared to spcs but the NAS is have is several leagues slower.

The simplest solution I can suggest is to open the catalogue or session less often. I rarely shut down my system and tend to leave sessions open most of the time I am working on them. I use Hibernate if I really need to shutdown or reboot. It saves a little time but may not be very compatible with what a NAS is intended to be used for.

I use the NAS for archiving Sessions. If I really need to go and do some work on an archived session I take a decision about whether to work on it where it is or to copy it back to the SSD first. And plan my time accordingly.

However, I don;t have to wait "hours" for 1000 image sessions to load even from the NAS.

HTH.


Grant
SFA
 
Posts: 7159
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:32 pm


Return to Capture One 12.x Software



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests