C1P in iPad or ARM based MacBook

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C1P in iPad or ARM based MacBook

Postby NN635412303032341950UL » Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:37 pm

iPad Pro is already proving itself to be useful after WWDC 2019 and I wonder if Phase One has a plan or not.

Next year, Apple is planning to announce the MacBook with ARM chip which had been used on iPhone and iPad. Eventually, Apple's MacBook lineup will have ARM-based CPU instead of Intel CPU. Intel already confirmed that Apple will not be going to use Intel CPU after 2020 for their laptop.

It's just a matter of time if C1P can support ARM-based CPU or not. Btw, Apple already initiated the project to unify both iOS and MacOS apps that people can use a single app on both OS. I know that C1P is based on a desktop platform but MacBook will have ARM-based CPU.

Perhaps, Phase One should develop an app for iPad which can also be used on MacOS since iOS 13 and MacOS Catalina can now support multiplatform apps for both iOS and MacOS.
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Re: C1P in iPad or ARM based MacBook

Postby PSS » Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:33 am

especially now that external storage will be accessible through the usb c port...ipad pro is plenty fast enough, screen is great, 512gb should be enough internal storage....perfect tethering and location/travel solution....
i can't imagine phase does not already have something cooking....
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Re: C1P in iPad or ARM based MacBook

Postby Nightjar » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:10 am

+ 1

Especially with Ipad OS it seems like a MUST that Phaseone will release an Ipad solution...otherwise it will just make me go back to Lightroom, which would be frustrating for both parties.

Also: I hope they'll incorporate the new Sidecar feature for Macbook & Ipad usage.
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Re: C1P in iPad or ARM based MacBook

Postby C-M-B » Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:16 pm

I'd hate to be a party-pooper, but I don't think the iPad Pro would be a good fit for Capture One. Not only is it still a bit underpowered to deliver a good experience with C1 (which is a very ressource heavy program) but the battery would be drained in such a short time, it would not make sense to have this combination.

Consider how long (short) it lasts on current laptops when they are disconnected and now add the additional power draw of an external drive.

The only thing that I could imagine working would be something that only works for tethering but not editing. That would still draw quite a lot of power (rendering the images and storing them) but at least it would be possible to use it for more than an hour or so.
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Re: C1P in iPad or ARM based MacBook

Postby Mdelrossi_1 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:48 pm

No disrespect, but have you used an iPad, especially the pro?
I have the 10.5 and it is anything but underpowered, and the battery is fine. I use Afinity Photo on it as well as Lightroom CC (mobile), no issues.

Hopefully Apple fixes the storage/file system in the next version of the operating system, to make it more desktop like.

Programs just have to be written properly.
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Re: C1P in iPad or ARM based MacBook

Postby C-M-B » Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:27 pm

Lightroom CC mobile is not comparable to a full fledged version of Capture One.
That's like comparing a hatched quail to a hawk. Not even remotely in the same league, CC mobile doesn't even have the same features as the regular LR CC version.

My computer isn't the latest and greatest in hardware but it's still quite capable with its i7-7700K @4.37 GHz and 32GB RAM and the GTX 1070 as a GPU. While editing it's very busy when it comes to editing photos and in my case they are "only" 50MP Fuji files. With a 150MP file it'd be a bit slower but still manageable - however it still takes a lot of time and every to chew through files, especially with stuff like luminance masks and - and this is quite important - it does produce a lot of heat and requires a lot of energy.
The same is true for professional laptops for Windows and Mac - energy and temperature are the biggest enemies for ANY capable processor and the iPad Pro processor is no exeption and there are numerous example of these devices overheating or just getting hot enough not to be comfortable any more.
Even if such small mobile devices are able to have short burts of big processsing power, they will not be able to keep that processing power going without a lot of heat and energy being drained.

Last but not least: RAM.

Just browsing through a few files (without making any edits/layers,..) Capture One get upt to 1.5GB of RAM. The iPad Pro has 4GB of RAM. Try running Capture One or Lightroom on 4GB RAM and see how nicely it performs. There's a reason why CC mobile is _not_ meant for pro use.

Phase One still mainly wants people to have a good experience with their own big files from the digital backs - and that won't really work on a tablet, at least not satifactory or for any real professional use or for use with large files such as their 150MP raw files. I just can't see them producing an app that wouldn't be able to handle these files even on the lastest available devices. Could you imagine the backlash and how nastly ppl would react to that?
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Re: C1P in iPad or ARM based MacBook

Postby PSS » Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:49 pm

C-M-B wrote:Lightroom CC mobile is not comparable to a full fledged version of Capture One.
That's like comparing a hatched quail to a hawk. Not even remotely in the same league, CC mobile doesn't even have the same features as the regular LR CC version.

My computer isn't the latest and greatest in hardware but it's still quite capable with its i7-7700K @4.37 GHz and 32GB RAM and the GTX 1070 as a GPU. While editing it's very busy when it comes to editing photos and in my case they are "only" 50MP Fuji files. With a 150MP file it'd be a bit slower but still manageable - however it still takes a lot of time and every to chew through files, especially with stuff like luminance masks and - and this is quite important - it does produce a lot of heat and requires a lot of energy.
The same is true for professional laptops for Windows and Mac - energy and temperature are the biggest enemies for ANY capable processor and the iPad Pro processor is no exeption and there are numerous example of these devices overheating or just getting hot enough not to be comfortable any more.
Even if such small mobile devices are able to have short burts of big processsing power, they will not be able to keep that processing power going without a lot of heat and energy being drained.

Last but not least: RAM.

Just browsing through a few files (without making any edits/layers,..) Capture One get upt to 1.5GB of RAM. The iPad Pro has 4GB of RAM. Try running Capture One or Lightroom on 4GB RAM and see how nicely it performs. There's a reason why CC mobile is _not_ meant for pro use.

Phase One still mainly wants people to have a good experience with their own big files from the digital backs - and that won't really work on a tablet, at least not satifactory or for any real professional use or for use with large files such as their 150MP raw files. I just can't see them producing an app that wouldn't be able to handle these files even on the lastest available devices. Could you imagine the backlash and how nastly ppl would react to that?

only a very, very, very small minority of people work with 150mpix files....vast majority of C1 users work in the 40-50mpix range, a lot well below....
LR CC is extremely "pro" whatever that means....it is fast, lean and extremely capable...and the connected cloud infrastructure is just great...
iPhones and iPads have benchmarks that can easily handle C1....they handle 4k 60fps editing.....
its not how much ram or how fast the processor is, its how efficient the software is....
same goes for battery....ipad pro is 80?% battery....it runs LR CC, PS,...pretty much all day, so there is no reason it can't run an efficient version of C1....
storage is a bigger issue IMO....the 512gb version is getting up there and for my workflow that would be necessary....i am not interested in connecting drives (while shooting) since i might as well use a macbook pro at that point...
to me the ideal solution would be one cable camera to iPad...just a smaller set up then macbook pro....and one running longer....
there will be a lot of tether apps coming out once the ipadOS comes out, C1 will not want to lag behind on this one....its not like phase's camera business has a great future....
its not like we should not be able to have a similar solution with the surface tablets.....but of course we don't....there is a reason apple does not run mac os on iPads....and i would not want a desktop version of C1 on the iPad anyway.....one of the best things about LR CC is how adobe brings the experience to the iphone, iPad...i am not a fan of adobe, but they are on the right track there.....
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Re: C1P in iPad or ARM based MacBook

Postby fatihayoglu » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:01 pm

And don't forget that some IPP models have 6GB ram and to be perfectly honest, if it can process a 3GB photoshop file without an issue, it means it has enough processing power for much smaller files of CO.
As previously noted, the performance depends on how you compile the code for iOS, if you do a lazy job, it won't be good obviously.
On the other hand, giving the fact that CO hasn't been optimized for macOS yet, I do not expect PO will support an iOS version anytime soon.
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Re: C1P in iPad or ARM based MacBook

Postby C-M-B » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:58 pm

The "pro" comment was not meant to say that the software is bad or slow. It's just not really meant to be used for work where color accuracy is important as (to my knowledge) the iPad/Pro can't be calibrated and used with LR CC mob. Apart from that LR CC mob has a few important features missing. https://www.digitaltrends.com/photograp ... m-classic/

And it does not export to anything but JPEG. That's bad news but I'm sure you can already suspect why this limitation exists.

And I'm not sure it works with external drives at all (without having to import files)

You're right about the 6GB but that was just a minor point. It's still not a lot and not enough to work with many large files.

And regarding your comment on it being able to process a 3GB photoshop file...sure. The question that remains is:
a. how long does it take
b. how hot does it get
c. how much battery does that consume when doing these things continuosly


Yes, only a small minority works with 150MP files.
A larger minority works with 100MP files.
An even larger minority works with 80MP files.
And even more with 60MP files.

I'd say the amount of users working with high-res RAW images in Capture on is proportinally larger compared to Lightroom and that will be a problem, especially with power hungry features like luminance masks and layers.

And if it runs alright with a small amount of opened files ad mid-low-res (say 200 images at 35MP) but will take a long time to open a lot of files at mid-high-res (1000 images at 60MP) and won't be useable for loads of high-res images (3000 images at 150MP) then a lot of pros won't be able to use it.

I don't want to annoy any fanboys but the iPad Pro is still a tablet with all the limitations a tablet with regards to thermals, power and so on.
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Re: C1P in iPad or ARM based MacBook

Postby PSS » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:43 pm

C-M-B wrote:The "pro" comment was not meant to say that the software is bad or slow. It's just not really meant to be used for work where color accuracy is important as (to my knowledge) the iPad/Pro can't be calibrated and used with LR CC mob. Apart from that LR CC mob has a few important features missing. https://www.digitaltrends.com/photograp ... m-classic/

And it does not export to anything but JPEG. That's bad news but I'm sure you can already suspect why this limitation exists.

And I'm not sure it works with external drives at all (without having to import files)

You're right about the 6GB but that was just a minor point. It's still not a lot and not enough to work with many large files.

And regarding your comment on it being able to process a 3GB photoshop file...sure. The question that remains is:
a. how long does it take
b. how hot does it get
c. how much battery does that consume when doing these things continuosly


Yes, only a small minority works with 150MP files.
A larger minority works with 100MP files.
An even larger minority works with 80MP files.
And even more with 60MP files.

I'd say the amount of users working with high-res RAW images in Capture on is proportinally larger compared to Lightroom and that will be a problem, especially with power hungry features like luminance masks and layers.

And if it runs alright with a small amount of opened files ad mid-low-res (say 200 images at 35MP) but will take a long time to open a lot of files at mid-high-res (1000 images at 60MP) and won't be useable for loads of high-res images (3000 images at 150MP) then a lot of pros won't be able to use it.

I don't want to annoy any fanboys but the iPad Pro is still a tablet with all the limitations a tablet with regards to thermals, power and so on.


i dont think you know how LR CC and mobile works.....all files are always in the cloud, you can download originals or make adjustments on previews....so far importing into LR mobile has been a pain because one had to go though camera roll....ipadOS will do away with that....
one thing i really appreciate about a macbook pro/imac/ipad workflow is the consistent look across all screens....
i won't get into calibration details but a lot has changed and most people do not print or hand in proofs....
an iPad pro has a better screen then a 5 year old eizo....
not sure about % but i doubt that 1% of all C1 users even shoot 50mpix....
from my own experience with gfx50 files in LR mobile its instant and culling/editing/adjustments on iPad pro: i haven't sat long enough with it to drain the battery....compared to macbook pro i would expect the battery to last 3x as long....heavy constant use 5-6 hrs, normal tether work session use 8-10.....
everybody has different requirements but in regard to power and energy the iPad pro has plenty to handle large raw files in a professional workflow....
i would probably use it only on location and for travel but i could see it replacing laptops in general really fast anywhere for tethering unless one needs to shoot to a larger screen for bigger production....
it will depend on the interface and experience (and desktop compatible sessions/catalogs) for me to replace my macbook pro (which has long replaced my desktop)
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Re: C1P in iPad or ARM based MacBook

Postby C-M-B » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:13 am

And if you're shooting without a cloud? :)

i won't get into calibration details but a lot has changed and most people do not print or hand in proofs....

That's why I said it's not for pros. I'd say that people who photograph for a living (especially for magazines and other publications) are always faced with proofs. We don't have to hand them in but we better make sure we know that our images are made according to their printer workflow.

Good luck trying to edit files on a screen with nearly 7000K and 200-300cd² when the end result will be printed for a 5000K/80cd² environment.
Good luck trying to get a homogenous look over many screens without calibration.
Good luck trying to exlain to the AD that you can only get him JPEGs because your iPad Pro won't let you export 16 bit TIFFs.

An iPad Pro has a great screen, but it's still a 12" screen that is completely uncalibrated. A well calibrated 23 or 27 or bigger EIZO with equal light distribution will definitely give you a completely different perspective.
That's why I'm saying it's a great device but not really for professional use where color is vital.

not sure about % but i doubt that 1% of all C1 users even shoot 50mpix....


I doubt it's 1%. Think about who it was originally made for and how long it took for "regular" users to adopt it (or at least consider it).

In any case I believe you when you say you're happy with the way you're editing files on LR mobile. But I think you should make a video of it because right now I can only find videos of low res files being edited.

And I have to stress the point that thermal limitations might mean that it won't be able to cope with a continous editing.

IMO all mobile devices made by Apple are mainly designed for short bursts of intense work followed by pauses to let the passive cooling do its job and to save battery. However when stressed for longer periods they start to run hot, throttle and often the battery starts to drain quickly.

And a decent editing session in Capture One will definitely stress the CPU, as will intense image editing in Photoshop, not just opening/closing a 3GB file once or applying a light filter for a few seconds..

It would be wonderful if Apple had suddenly "invented" a completely new CPU that does away with thermal issues, ignores power restrictions and lays an egg every day alongside a glass of fresh milk.

But there has to be substantial proof of that and I have not seen any (despite intense search and research).
Yet.
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Re: C1P in iPad or ARM based MacBook

Postby PSS » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:05 am

C-M-B wrote:And if you're shooting without a cloud? :)

i won't get into calibration details but a lot has changed and most people do not print or hand in proofs....

That's why I said it's not for pros. I'd say that people who photograph for a living (especially for magazines and other publications) are always faced with proofs. We don't have to hand them in but we better make sure we know that our images are made according to their printer workflow.

Good luck trying to edit files on a screen with nearly 7000K and 200-300cd² when the end result will be printed for a 5000K/80cd² environment.
Good luck trying to get a homogenous look over many screens without calibration.
Good luck trying to exlain to the AD that you can only get him JPEGs because your iPad Pro won't let you export 16 bit TIFFs.

An iPad Pro has a great screen, but it's still a 12" screen that is completely uncalibrated. A well calibrated 23 or 27 or bigger EIZO with equal light distribution will definitely give you a completely different perspective.
That's why I'm saying it's a great device but not really for professional use where color is vital.

not sure about % but i doubt that 1% of all C1 users even shoot 50mpix....


I doubt it's 1%. Think about who it was originally made for and how long it took for "regular" users to adopt it (or at least consider it).

In any case I believe you when you say you're happy with the way you're editing files on LR mobile. But I think you should make a video of it because right now I can only find videos of low res files being edited.

And I have to stress the point that thermal limitations might mean that it won't be able to cope with a continous editing.

IMO all mobile devices made by Apple are mainly designed for short bursts of intense work followed by pauses to let the passive cooling do its job and to save battery. However when stressed for longer periods they start to run hot, throttle and often the battery starts to drain quickly.

And a decent editing session in Capture One will definitely stress the CPU, as will intense image editing in Photoshop, not just opening/closing a 3GB file once or applying a light filter for a few seconds..

It would be wonderful if Apple had suddenly "invented" a completely new CPU that does away with thermal issues, ignores power restrictions and lays an egg every day alongside a glass of fresh milk.

But there has to be substantial proof of that and I have not seen any (despite intense search and research).
Yet.

LR CC can obviously export 16 tiffs
we are not talking about a situation that allows or calls for a calibrated eizo
i own pretty much every generation of iPad and have never had "thermal issues" or draining batteries
i am starting to doubt that you have ever even used an iPad pro with LR mobile or any other app that can handle raws
i doubt that 1% of all C1 users use digital backs and since even the vast majority of all existing DBs are under 50mpix, i would say those using 50+ mpix are 0.1% or less....
different people have different workflows....
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Re: C1P in iPad or ARM based MacBook

Postby Reign of Crows » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:03 am

The transition of Macs to ARM is heavily rumored but hasn't been officially confirmed. Tracking down the Intel comment, it seems to derive from one article in February 2019 and it's still conjecture from Intel employees, not based on actual orders that were made (or not made) by Apple.

C-M-B wrote:IMO all mobile devices made by Apple are mainly designed for short bursts of intense work followed by pauses to let the passive cooling do its job and to save battery. However when stressed for longer periods they start to run hot, throttle and often the battery starts to drain quickly.

In theory, yes. But processors have become surprisingly efficient to the point that even these mobile devices are capable of surprising things. I've been away from home for a few months and have been using the latest MacBook as my primary system (Intel-based but passive cooling). Editing and exporting photos in Capture One, and editing and exporting videos in Final Cut Pro X are surprisingly doable. Actually, to say "doable" implies it's a painful experience - when I used Capture One on my home computer (an iMac 5K with a higher-end Intel Core i7) the performance didn't feel much different, if any at all. Admittedly that was a fairly brief use before I was on the road again and I fully expect it to perform better on the iMac, but the fact that it didn't feel like a night and day difference was shocking to me. Video editing with Final Cut Pro X required me to tweak a setting to disable background rendering to make it more usable on the MacBook but once that was done it also didn't feel terribly different from the iMac.
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Re: C1P in iPad or ARM based MacBook

Postby C-M-B » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:38 pm

PSS wrote:LR CC can obviously export 16 tiffs
we are not talking about a situation that allows or calls for a calibrated eizo
i own pretty much every generation of iPad and have never had "thermal issues" or draining batteries
i am starting to doubt that you have ever even used an iPad pro with LR mobile or any other app that can handle raws
i doubt that 1% of all C1 users use digital backs and since even the vast majority of all existing DBs are under 50mpix, i would say those using 50+ mpix are 0.1% or less....
different people have different workflows....


As I said LR CC mobile can't export to anything but JPG and that won't do. At least nor for me.

So no color calibration, no TIFF export - I think that alone is reason enough not to call it a professional solution.

You can doubt whatever you want and feel free to. But that doesn't change the fact that for the small percentage of high-res MF shooters it will probably not be as easy or comfortable to work with.

I don't want to get personal so I'll just say that some people are a bit more fond of a certain brand than they might want to admit, and that might just cloud and influence their perception of the possibilities and capabilities of a certain product. So most likely I won't be able to change your opinion, no matter what and therefore there's no reason to continue arguing about it :)
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Re: C1P in iPad or ARM based MacBook

Postby PSS » Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:27 pm

C-M-B wrote:
PSS wrote:LR CC can obviously export 16 tiffs
we are not talking about a situation that allows or calls for a calibrated eizo
i own pretty much every generation of iPad and have never had "thermal issues" or draining batteries
i am starting to doubt that you have ever even used an iPad pro with LR mobile or any other app that can handle raws
i doubt that 1% of all C1 users use digital backs and since even the vast majority of all existing DBs are under 50mpix, i would say those using 50+ mpix are 0.1% or less....
different people have different workflows....


As I said LR CC mobile can't export to anything but JPG and that won't do. At least nor for me.

So no color calibration, no TIFF export - I think that alone is reason enough not to call it a professional solution.

You can doubt whatever you want and feel free to. But that doesn't change the fact that for the small percentage of high-res MF shooters it will probably not be as easy or comfortable to work with.

I don't want to get personal so I'll just say that some people are a bit more fond of a certain brand than they might want to admit, and that might just cloud and influence their perception of the possibilities and capabilities of a certain product. So most likely I won't be able to change your opinion, no matter what and therefore there's no reason to continue arguing about it :)

i definitely like apple and what they do in general...
i definitely am not a fan of adobe but that does not stop me from liking what they are doing, especially in regard with LR and cloud.....i am not sure how and why you would want to export from LR mobile...the whole point is that everything you import in LR CC (desktop or mobile) can be worked on, edited anywhere....and since (right now) the iPad has no real file system there is no point in exporting anything other then email or social media....but all edits done on LR mobile can be exported as 16bit TIFF from LR CC...
again: none of this seems to fit into your workflow, but the people looking at this thread might be interested in it...
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