Catalog with Referenced images over Local Network

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Catalog with Referenced images over Local Network

Postby abbstrack » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:14 am

Trying to find out if I am just the 1% of users with a workflow that has become impossible, or if there are others out there in a similar position. I am using Capture One 11.01 on a 2017 MacBook Pro. I use a catalog workflow, and have my images (~4TB) on external drives, and accessed via a local network. I have a Mac-mini set up as my home server, with two 4TB drives connected to the mini). I virtually mount the drives via network to my machine whenever I need to edit.

My Capture one catalogs (3 of them) are locally hosted on my laptop. Catalogs 1 and 2 have ~70K images each. Catalog 3 has ~13K images.

So the setup is as follows:

Laptop/Catalogs <---------> Local Network <---------> Mac Mini/Referenced Images

Unfortunately, Capture One does not seem to like this setup. When I fire up my catalog, performance is fine so long as the drives are offline and there is no connection between the catalogs and the referenced images. However when I mount the drives, I get a never ending spinning beachball which doesn't allow me to do anything in capture one, thus rendering my workflow completely inoperable.

Curious if anyone has come up against this, and what workaround you've found. I'm trying to export catalogs (by project) out of the existing 3 catalogs I have to make them smaller in size as that may help, but even that task has proven too much since I can't do anything once I mount my hard drives.

I do not experience similar performance problems in Lightroom. Lightroom handles the referenced masters over network setup without any problems. I'd hate to have to go back to Lightroom, but I may be forced to as being able to handle this sort of workflow is a bit of a requirement since the MacBook Pro is now my main/only machine.

Curious if anyone else has come across this and has a resolution.

Thanks
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Re: Catalog with Referenced images over Local Network

Postby jjakucyk » Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:17 pm

I'm temporarily in a situation like that as I'm transitioning from a 2008 Mac Pro to an iMac Pro. Currently I'm using the Mac Pro as a file server until I can get a USB-C/Thunderbolt drive enclosure for bigger local storage. I'd say it works OK, but certainly not as well as having everything local. I haven't seen those issues you mentioned though. I keep my catalogs to about 40K photos max, and preferably closer to 30K. I think that's where much of your problem lies.
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Re: Catalog with Referenced images over Local Network

Postby Corey Riggle » Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:58 pm

Phase one will tell you not to access files over a network, and what you're doing is unsupported.
I've been working on a server solution that would probably work in your situation, but it's real money so would only be appropriate for a large commercial situation.
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Re: Catalog with Referenced images over Local Network

Postby abbstrack » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:15 pm

jjakucyk wrote:I'm temporarily in a situation like that as I'm transitioning from a 2008 Mac Pro to an iMac Pro. Currently I'm using the Mac Pro as a file server until I can get a USB-C/Thunderbolt drive enclosure for bigger local storage. I'd say it works OK, but certainly not as well as having everything local. I haven't seen those issues you mentioned though. I keep my catalogs to about 40K photos max, and preferably closer to 30K. I think that's where much of your problem lies.


working on getting the catalogs to sub-30K now. I've had to pull out the 4TB drives individually from the server and plug them directly into the MBP to even be able to start exporting out mini catalogs. Hoping once I'm done and go back to my intended setup I see an improvement.
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Re: Catalog with Referenced images over Local Network

Postby abbstrack » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:18 pm

Corey Riggle wrote:Phase one will tell you not to access files over a network, and what you're doing is unsupported.
I've been working on a server solution that would probably work in your situation, but it's real money so would only be appropriate for a large commercial situation.


Interesting, I've not heard this from Phase One yet, but that's disappointing news that network files are unsupported. Admittedly I may be in the 1% of users working in this fashion, but I'd prefer to always have my catalogs with me, and not have to lug around 4TB of masters as well.

Can you sell your solution to Phase One so that they can implement across the board? :D
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Re: Catalog with Referenced images over Local Network

Postby emeu1 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:25 pm

The crucial things to now here are:

1. How is your MacBook connected to your local network? Wireless or wired?

2. Same question for the Mac Mini.

3. If wired: at which speed are they connected and what duplex setting?
Apple icon => System preferences ... => Network
Select your wired network connection on the right side.
Click [Advanced] button.
Click "Hardware" tab.
Connection speed and duplex setting are shown.
MTU is also nice to know.

4. Same for wireless: at which speed?
Apple icon => About this Mac
Click [System Report ...] button
On the left side, under "Network", click "Wi-Fi"
On the right side, find under "Interfaces", the line called "Current Network Information".
The next line should show your wireless network name.
What setting is shown after "PHY Mode" and what number is shown behind "Transmit Rate"?

5. How are your external drives connected to your Mac Mini?
Is that USB 3.0 / 3.1 or USB 2.0?

6. Any other computer on the same network at the same time as you accessing the Mac Mini (for whatever purpose, not necessarily accessing the external drives?

For your info.
I have CO installed on a MacBook Pro 2015 model.
Catalog also local on the MacBook Pro and images referenced.
Images on a NAS connected to the LAN.
I don't have the problems you experience.

Best regards,

Erik
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Re: Catalog with Referenced images over Local Network

Postby Corey Riggle » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:35 pm

abbstrack wrote:
Corey Riggle wrote:Can you sell your solution to Phase One so that they can implement across the board? :D



unfortunately it's a hardware solution, not a software one. I can sell it to you directly though. :D
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Re: Catalog with Referenced images over Local Network

Postby Corey Riggle » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:36 pm

emeu1 wrote:The crucial things to now here are:

1. How is your MacBook connected to your local network? Wireless or wired?

2. Same question for the Mac Mini.

3. If wired: at which speed are they connected and what duplex setting?
Apple icon => System preferences ... => Network
Select your wired network connection on the right side.
Click [Advanced] button.
Click "Hardware" tab.
Connection speed and duplex setting are shown.
MTU is also nice to know.

4. Same for wireless: at which speed?
Apple icon => About this Mac
Click [System Report ...] button
On the left side, under "Network", click "Wi-Fi"
On the right side, find under "Interfaces", the line called "Current Network Information".
The next line should show your wireless network name.
What setting is shown after "PHY Mode" and what number is shown behind "Transmit Rate"?

5. How are your external drives connected to your Mac Mini?
Is that USB 3.0 / 3.1 or USB 2.0?

6. Any other computer on the same network at the same time as you accessing the Mac Mini (for whatever purpose, not necessarily accessing the external drives?

For your info.
I have CO installed on a MacBook Pro 2015 model.
Catalog also local on the MacBook Pro and images referenced.
Images on a NAS connected to the LAN.
I don't have the problems you experience.

Best regards,

Erik


honestly none of this will help. Even if all this was optimal it won't make a difference with consumer hardware.
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Re: Catalog with Referenced images over Local Network

Postby abbstrack » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:40 pm

Here goes

emeu1 wrote:
1. How is your MacBook connected to your local network? Wireless or wired?

Wireless

2. Same question for the Mac Mini.

Wired. Connected via ethernet cable directly into cable modem.

3. If wired: at which speed are they connected and what duplex setting?
Apple icon => System preferences ... => Network
Select your wired network connection on the right side.
Click [Advanced] button.
Click "Hardware" tab.
Connection speed and duplex setting are shown.
MTU is also nice to know.


for the Mac mini, set to configure automatically with the following details:
speed: 1000baseTE
Duplex: full-duplex, flow-control, energy-efficient-ethernet
MTU: Standard 1500


4. Same for wireless: at which speed?
Apple icon => About this Mac
Click [System Report ...] button
On the left side, under "Network", click "Wi-Fi"
On the right side, find under "Interfaces", the line called "Current Network Information".
The next line should show your wireless network name.
What setting is shown after "PHY Mode" and what number is shown behind "Transmit Rate"?

PHY Mode: 802.11ac
Transmit Rate: 867


5. How are your external drives connected to your Mac Mini?
Is that USB 3.0 / 3.1 or USB 2.0?

USB 3.0, all plugged directly into the Mac mini

6. Any other computer on the same network at the same time as you accessing the Mac Mini (for whatever purpose, not necessarily accessing the external drives?

at times yes, mobile devices (iPad, iPhone, etc), but also at times, none at all, at least none actively accessing.


For your info.
I have CO installed on a MacBook Pro 2015 model.
Catalog also local on the MacBook Pro and images referenced.
Images on a NAS connected to the LAN.
I don't have the problems you experience.

Best regards,

Erik
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Re: Catalog with Referenced images over Local Network

Postby abbstrack » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:55 pm

Corey Riggle wrote:
abbstrack wrote:
Corey Riggle wrote:Can you sell your solution to Phase One so that they can implement across the board? :D



unfortunately it's a hardware solution, not a software one. I can sell it to you directly though. :D


any reason why adobe can have it work seamlessly but CO can't? I'm thinking there's got to be something either in the build, or my own setup that's causing this.

FWIW, I've also noticed this happens moreso when I am in catalogs that are accessing specifically one of the two 4TB drives, the older one containing 3.6TB of photos with only ~350GB of free space remaining). When I am accessing the drive that holds more recent images, (about 400GB of images with 3.6TB of free space remaining), I don't experience this issue. I've already swapped out the 3.6TB drive for a newer one, using CCC to clone it, but it hasn't changed the outcome as I'm still having trouble getting going.
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Re: Catalog with Referenced images over Local Network

Postby RGB » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:23 am

abbstrack wrote:Interesting, I've not heard this from Phase One yet, but that's disappointing news that network files are unsupported.


You probably haven't heard that from Phase One, because it's simply not true ;)

Your setup (local catalog, images on a NAS) is perfectly fine and a very typical setup. Even your catalog sizes shouldn't be too much of an issue. Capture One will need a minute or so to load it, but after that shouldn't be hanging.

For the sake of completeness: Storing you catalog on a NAS is a different story. It is still supported (e.g., there are mechanisms to prevent multiple people changing the catalog at the same time), but terribly slow. But that's not what you are doing, so you should be fine.

So, something strange is going on, and I would suggest you open a support ticket and figure out together with Phase One support why Capture One is hanging for you.
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Re: Catalog with Referenced images over Local Network

Postby emeu1 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:22 pm

@abbstrack,

Your network setup is fine and almost identical to mine (and I haven't the problems you have).
So network can be ruled out.
Have you ever tried to copy a couple of Gb of image files, using the Finder, from your MacBook to one of the USB drives connected to the Mac Mini?
If I copy approx. 2.5Gb of .NEF files, it takes around 3.5 minutes.

Best regards,

Erik
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Re: Catalog with Referenced images over Local Network

Postby fcracer » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:21 am

C1 over a network can be slow to begin with, but recent Mac OS updates have wrecked havoc on the AFP and SMB protocols. What’s the speed between your Mac and your sever? I’ve seen several Macs get stuck on SMB at 10MB/s when the drive and network combination previously worked at 50-70MB/s. Let me know the speed and I can provide fixes if this is your issue.
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Re: Catalog with Referenced images over Local Network

Postby abbstrack » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:54 pm

NN636271518282896804UL wrote:C1 over a network can be slow to begin with, but recent Mac OS updates have wrecked havoc on the AFP and SMB protocols. What’s the speed between your Mac and your sever? I’ve seen several Macs get stuck on SMB at 10MB/s when the drive and network combination previously worked at 50-70MB/s. Let me know the speed and I can provide fixes if this is your issue.


I'm generally at 150+MB/s down, and ~22MB/s up. Not super lightning fast, but should be enough to access files over a local network where there isn't any heavy traffic.
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Re: Catalog with Referenced images over Local Network

Postby abbstrack » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:59 pm

Just to update, in the support ticket I had ongoing with Phase One, I was told the 'recommended' catalog size is sub-30K for optimal performance, so I went the long way and exported my catalogs up by year. Instead of 3 catalogs, I now have 13 different catalogs to move between. While not ideal, having the sub 30k image catalogs has eliminated (for now) the performance issues I was experiencing. Hoping this is a long term solve, and that in time Capture One puts some additional effort behind database management and performance so I could theoretically use one catalog if I liked to house all my images.

Thanks all for your efforts and ideas/suggestions.
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