RAW files come in in B&W

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RAW files come in in B&W

Postby NNN636364181394546668 » Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:46 pm

I often shoot with my Fuji Xs set to B&W film simulations.
This allows me a better idea of the contrasts when I look in the VF.
Even though I may not want to process in colour.

RAW should store all my colour information.
However, when I bring the such a file into C1, it is already B&W!

How can I import the colour image?

Thanks
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Re: RAW files come in in B&W

Postby SFA » Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:56 pm

If you look at the file in the Base Characteristics tool what value do you see for the "Curve" field?

I would guess "Auto" but it might me the B&W film simulation from the camera.

If you have a latest version of the Fuji related releases of Capture One (and the camera is listed as being supported for Film Simulations, try changing the "Curve" from Auto to one of the other values available.

If that is not the answer then I suspect this is a very specific Fuji question and hopefully other Fuji users will be along shortly with their answers.


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Re: RAW files come in in B&W

Postby NNN636364181394546668 » Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:15 pm

Thanks Grant. You are correct.

Interestingly the choices it gives me I think are the settings available in the camera, which in-camera would only apply to JPGs.

But as my file is RAW, I assume I can safely start with whichever curve I choose and go on from there.
Each choice would give a different starting point whether I do chose to דאשט B&W or go colour.

Thanks a lot.

Menachem
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Re: RAW files come in in B&W

Postby SFA » Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:02 pm

Hello Menachem,

For most cameras the default 'Auto' setting will usually pick the (generic for the camera body in use) 'Film Standard' Curve which will typically be a curve that Phase will have developed to provide a starting point 'generally agreeable look' for the RAW file.

For (supported) Fuji cameras I read somewhere that Fuji wanted the images to make use of any 'Film Styles' set in the cameras when the shot was taken. So if you use a film style in camera that is what you would see from the in camera jpg - which means also the jpg embedded in the RAW file for an instant view - and so is also applied as the 'Auto' selection by Capture One.

But take that curve away and you are working with the full colour range and whatever curve you select as an alternative. Or Linear if you want to start from no selected curve.

I thing the same sort of thing is possible with the latest Phase camera backs as well but I have not heard of anything available as a curve and using this approach for cameras from other manufacturers.

The second and widely used approach is to use 'Styles' to apply a specific 'look' to an image but that would typically tend to be something applied on top of the 'Curve' of choice and so is less exclusive and, possibly, not so well aligned with the capabilities of the camera system since a style will tend to be somewhat generic in nature.

I think you should be in a great place to do whatever editing you wish to undertake with your images. Enjoy the process!

Grant
Last edited by SFA on Mon Dec 24, 2018 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RAW files come in in B&W

Postby NNN636364181394546668 » Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:31 pm

Thanks Grant
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Re: RAW files come in in B&W

Postby NNN634237463177667260 » Wed Dec 26, 2018 9:57 pm

MacOS 10.12.x
Capture One 12
Fuji X-Pro2 capture raw and jpg

Day one of Capture One 12 trial period.

After import, the raw files of the jpgs shot with black and white film simulation show no color. Why? The raw files associated with jpgs using color film simulations show color. Any other application that can read Fuji raw files show a colored raw file that is associated with a black and white jpg. There has got to be a setting in the import dialog of Capture One 12 to allow that?

Applying a curve after importing IS applying film simulation. I don't want that! I want a raw file with color, as experienced with Lightroom which to my knowledge, it is not adding a curve. It's just reading the raw data.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!
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Re: RAW files come in in B&W

Postby SFA » Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:54 pm

NNN634237463177667260 wrote:MacOS 10.12.x
Capture One 12
Fuji X-Pro2 capture raw and jpg

Day one of Capture One 12 trial period.

After import, the raw files of the jpgs shot with black and white film simulation show no color. Why? The raw files associated with jpgs using color film simulations show color. Any other application that can read Fuji raw files show a colored raw file that is associated with a black and white jpg. There has got to be a setting in the import dialog of Capture One 12 to allow that?

Applying a curve after importing IS applying film simulation. I don't want that! I want a raw file with color, as experienced with Lightroom which to my knowledge, it is not adding a curve. It's just reading the raw data.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!


Did you read the posts above?

If you always want colour and not B&W, don't apply a B&W film Style when you shoot the image.

Simple.

There may be more complex approaches during import - but why make your life that complicated?


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Re: RAW files come in in B&W

Postby NNN634237463177667260 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:32 am

Hey Grant -

I appreciate your response. I did read the posts and they did not answer my question. That's why I posted again in hopes that someone who shoots black and white jpg with raw would respond with their experience. I have used LR, Iridient, On1, Fuji X Raw Studio, Preview, Bridge and Camera Raw and they all show a color raw file color regardless of what film simulation was applied to the jpg.

One of the benefits, to me, of Fuji cameras are the film simulations. Combining film simulations with white balance tweaks, shadow, highlight, and color saturation (when shooting color) allows me to create a jpg with the exact or very close to exact look I want. In the cases where the little image in the EVF looked better in the EVF than on a monitor, the raw file is used. Or I'll choose to create a different look completely from the captured jpg and need the raw file for that.

The interesting thing here is the raw files of all images shot with a color film simulation show as color minus the tweaks I previously mentioned. However for the black and white images, the raw files show no color and they also do not have the adjustments. The sensor to my knowledge captures color all the time by default.

I'm certainly not looking to complicate anything, believe me!! Hopefully there is a setting buried somewhere in the import dialog which can set.

I put in a support ticket so I'm hoping I'll hear something in a couple days.
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Re: RAW files come in in B&W

Postby David532 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:51 am

Support will tell you how to set up CO so that it defaults to any curve you want, one of the fuji film simulations or the standard CO curve. I won't go through procedure here as I am using my tablet and would need CO in front of me to exactly explain procedure but it is very simple.
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Re: RAW files come in in B&W

Postby David532 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 12:48 pm

David532 wrote:Support will tell you how to set up CO so that it defaults to any curve you want, one of the fuji film simulations or the standard CO curve. I won't go through procedure here as I am using my tablet and would need CO in front of me to exactly explain procedure but it is very simple.

I am now in front of Capture One so here is the procedure:-
Select color tool tab.
In Base Characteristics set the ICC Profile to the Generic setting for your camera.
Select the Curve you would like to set as default (I use Fuji ASTIA (SOFT) as my default) but the choice is yours - Film Standard might be a good choice.
Now at the end of the Base Characteristics header are 3 little dots, left click on this and select "Save as Defaults for ....", you will get a fairly self explanatory pop-up telling you that your new default will be applied to all new imports but warning you that existing variants won't be changed unless you have selected them and choose to apply the new default.
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Re: RAW files come in in B&W

Postby SFA » Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:15 pm

NNN634237463177667260 wrote:Hey Grant -

I appreciate your response. I did read the posts and they did not answer my question. That's why I posted again in hopes that someone who shoots black and white jpg with raw would respond with their experience. I have used LR, Iridient, On1, Fuji X Raw Studio, Preview, Bridge and Camera Raw and they all show a color raw file color regardless of what film simulation was applied to the jpg.

One of the benefits, to me, of Fuji cameras are the film simulations. Combining film simulations with white balance tweaks, shadow, highlight, and color saturation (when shooting color) allows me to create a jpg with the exact or very close to exact look I want. In the cases where the little image in the EVF looked better in the EVF than on a monitor, the raw file is used. Or I'll choose to create a different look completely from the captured jpg and need the raw file for that.

The interesting thing here is the raw files of all images shot with a color film simulation show as color minus the tweaks I previously mentioned. However for the black and white images, the raw files show no color and they also do not have the adjustments. The sensor to my knowledge captures color all the time by default.

I'm certainly not looking to complicate anything, believe me!! Hopefully there is a setting buried somewhere in the import dialog which can set.

I put in a support ticket so I'm hoping I'll hear something in a couple days.


That is a repeat of Menachem's (the original author of the thread) description of his requirements and it seems that he has resolved his needs based on my earlier reply. In particular what I wrote about the way that the Fuji images very specifically work as Curve to simulate the choice of Film simulation set in the camera. This is a deliberate choice by Fuji as part of their engagement with Capture One and how they wish to see it working, so far as I can tell. This is not the same as applying a film style to an already generically processed RAW interpretaaion.

You also need to consider that the in-camera tweaks will only apply to the jpg file processed in camera. Not the RAW file.

However if you have some standard tweaks that you always apply you should be able to set those up as a set of Presets or a Style and apply them at import or simply apply them as a mass change after import.

Are you using Express for Fuji or the Fuji Pro version of Capture One?



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Re: RAW files come in in B&W

Postby David532 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:48 pm

This whole thread has gone on more than necessary - it is quite easy to set up Fuji X RAWs to open either as set in camera (using the AUTO preset) or to whatever default you care to select from the numerous Fuji curve options (there are 16) and the normal options available to all cameras (Film Standard, Film Extra Shadow, Film High Contrast and Linear Response).
The only difference with Fuji X is that Auto sets the curve as that selected in camera while for non Fuji X cameras Auto almost inevitably selects Film Standard.
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Re: RAW files come in in B&W

Postby NNN634237463177667260 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:38 pm

Thank you for your instructions David, and tips from Grant.

There is a vast difference between Capture One and Lightroom both in the UI and depth of settings. When accustomed to certain behaviors we expect them. I had downloaded Capture One 11 trial version and forgot to use it until there were only three days remaining in the trial period. Capture One 11 showed color raw files while 12 requires (or allows, dependent upon opinion) a curve be applied to see color in the raw file of a black and white jpg. That's all I needed! It's a feature that, for me, adds more work because not all files look good with the Film Standard curve.

Additionally Capture One 12 handles Fuji raw files differently between the older X-trans II and the newer X-trans III processors. The X-trans II raw files for a black and white jpg show as color! Yes, they do! However, the Curve in Basic Characteristics only shows Auto, Film Extra Shadow, Film High Contrast, Film Standard, and Linear Response.

While trying this software the inconsistencies noted, and differences from my experience with other raw file editors had my heading spinning right from step one - import!

Phase One Support Statement - (Sounds nearly verbatim to David's response!)
Hello Rick, Thank you, having the files certainly helps to clear up what you are experiencing. New to version 12 is support for Fuji's film simulation, which is what you're seeing; Capture One will parse the embedded film simulation tag and apply the appropriate Film Curve for that simulation. This is accessible in the Base Characteristics tool (when set to Auto, it will load the simulation that is embedded in the file) which is what you shot with.

If you'd like to disable this, set the Curve of the Base Characteristics tool to Film Standard. Then, select the dropdown menu at the top right of that tool (the ... button) and select Set as Default. This will bypass the automatic film simulation selection the next time Capture One renders a raw file from that camera.

Let me know if that helps.

Bear in mind the jpeg is already processed in camera so you can not change this curve. Only on the raw file.

Best regards,

Phase One Technical Support

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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Re: RAW files come in in B&W

Postby Paul_Steunebrink » Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:20 pm

NNN634237463177667260 wrote:(...)
Additionally Capture One 12 handles Fuji raw files differently between the older X-trans II and the newer X-trans III processors. The X-trans II raw files for a black and white jpg show as color! Yes, they do! However, the Curve in Basic Characteristics only shows Auto, Film Extra Shadow, Film High Contrast, Film Standard, and Linear Response.

The Fujifilm Film Simulations apply to a selection of Fujifilm cameras. See the release notes for details. Based on your description, it applies to models with a the X-trans III processor.

I do not understand all the fuss. Even for a non-Fuji shooter as I am it is easy to understand. It is an new feature in CO12 (users were asking for it). Now it is here. You can disable it a default.
Best regards,
Paul E. Steunebrink, Image Alchemist (website All about Capture One), Capture One trainer
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Re: RAW files come in in B&W

Postby NNN636364181394546668 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:23 pm

Yes, both the cameras I generally use are Fuji X-Trans III, viz X-T2 and Pro-2.

One of the 'nice' things about converting from colour to B&W yourself is that you can adjust the way [the 6 prime] individual colours are rendered. If the camera or other s/w does it, you lose this control.

Or am I missing something?

PS I don't shoot in whichever B&W mode because this is what I want. Sometimes I want colour -- but I find with a B&W VF I see tonality more accurately.
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