sharpness issue

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sharpness issue

Postby Wolfgang1 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:39 am

Hi,

Comparing the preview files in C1 ver 7.1.5 with the converted Tiffs (16bit prophotoRGB) in PS CS 6 @ 100% zoom factor, I found that there's an obvious drop in sharpness in the processed files. Sharpening is disabled in the process recipe and in the sharpness tab the slider is set to zero as well since I prefer to apply the sharpening after the final adjustments in PS. Reimporting the converted file in C1 and comparing it with the raw-file prior to the conversion side by side confirms the difference. I had a similar problem with C1, 4.5 some years ago but forgot to the check the sharpening in the process recipe at that time. After I had done so, the preview and the converted files looked pretty much the same.
But now I definetly have checked the box and set sharpening to zero as mentioned. Nonetheless there's a distinct difference regarding the sharpness.
So there's the question if there's another hidden setting I have to adjust or if there's something wrong here with C1.
BTW, I'm using win 7 ultimate (64 bit)

Thank you in advance for your comments

Wolfgang
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Re: sharpness issue

Postby Drew » Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:24 pm

Please open a support case and provide examples.

It's important to view the preview of the image in Capture One as compared to the preview of the image in Photoshop at 100% with identical scaling. Additionally, test and compare 8bit processed Tiffs as a matter of test. This, of course, should not matter unless you're using one of only a few $$$ monitors on the market capable of displaying more than 8Bit.

Additionally there are settings in Photoshop that will effect what appears to be sharpness. Ensure color space, working space, render intent, etc are properly set to match Capture One.
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Re: sharpness issue

Postby Wolfgang1 » Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:45 pm

Drew, thank you for your reply. Of course, both files are compared at the same scale (100 %) in C1 and PS. As expected, processing the files to 8 bit Tiffs doesn't change anything as for the sharpness issue. I'm using an Eizo CG 241 monitor which is calibrated and profiled. That said, color differences aren't an issue - they look fine and identical in C1 and PS CS6 after the conversion. I don't see any wrong settings regarding Colorspace, rendering intent etc either. As said, colors aren't the problem.

BUT: When I uncheck the "disable sharpening" box in the process recipe, voila`-the sharpness is identical in the C1-preview and the processed Tiff-file in PS (the sharpening sliders in C1 in the lens tab still set at 0, though). This means that C1 obviously applies some sharpening in the preview, even if the sharpening box is disabled. Looking further into that, I found that there's no difference in the C1 preview no matter if the sharpening box is enabled or disabled in the process recipe. In other words, the processed Tiff-files are sharpened or not depending on the setting in the process recipe but the preview in C1 doesn't refer to this and is sharpened in any case. I don't know if this is a bug which needs to be reported via a support case or if the obligatory sharpening of the preview intentionally is programmed into the software. In any case, it's not possible to judge the sharpness of the file in C1 prior to the conversion if you don't want to apply any sharpening in the final result which is not good and helpful, of course.
I doublechecked this issue with the raw files of 4 different cameras (1Dx, 5dIII, 1DsIII ,1DIV) and also with C1 ver 6 converting the files to PS CS 5 - it's the same problem as described. I don't know either if there's any hidden preset for the preview in C1 but didn't find any in the preferences.

Kind regards

Wolfgang
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Re: sharpness issue

Postby Paul_Steunebrink » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:48 am

Wolfgang1 wrote:...
Looking further into that, I found that there's no difference in the C1 preview no matter if the sharpening box is enabled or disabled in the process recipe. In other words, the processed Tiff-files are sharpened or not depending on the setting in the process recipe but the preview in C1 doesn't refer to this and is sharpened in any case.

Your observation is correct and it is intentional as far as I know.

The rationale behind it is that it is easier to review the sharpness and focus of an images with some sharpening applied, while at the same time having an easy way out of not applying sharpening to the processed result.
Best regards,
Paul E. Steunebrink, Image Alchemist, Capture One trainer
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Re: sharpness issue

Postby Wolfgang1 » Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:21 pm

Thank you, Paul. In the meantime, I have opened a support case. But the support team doesn't see a difference so far beween the preview and the processed file. That's why a would be very interested to know if other users experience the same issue as I do, so that the preview is sharper than the processed file if sharpening is disabled in the process recipe and the sharpness sliders in the lens tab are set to zero as well. In other words, the preview in C1 doesn't mirror the processed file for sharpness in PS (both scaled at 100%) if the sharpening is disabled in the process recipe - with the preview being sharper. If the sharpening is enabled,both look the same

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Re: sharpness issue

Postby Drew » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:16 am

Sorry... but what am I missing here?
Preview at 100% in Capture One should reflect your Processed file viewed in Photoshop at 100%.
In my test, it does so perfectly.

Sharpening set to "Zero" should be identical to choosing "Disable Sharpening" when processing.
In my test, it does so perfectly.

The only thing that should not occur by design, is that the preview should NOT change when selecting "Disable Sharpening".
In my test, selecting this option does NOT change Capture One's preview.

Below are two screenshots from my system.
In Photoshop the image to the Left is processed with Sharpening set to "Zero". The image on the right has the exact same settings but I have clicked "Disable Sharpening". The two images are identical.
Image

In Capture One I have sharpening set to "Zero" as displayed in the floating tool. "Disable Sharpening" is not clicked but that is not relevant as it has no bearing on the render of the preview at 100%.
Image

By way of actively switching from Capture One to Photoshop, I can clearly see the Preview in both are the same. The only slight difference I see is a shadow density difference as Photoshop will always adjust the dynamic range of a preview for the monitor's black point.

Have I misunderstood this conflict or do my tests confirm that the issue is subjective to the system and not the softwares?
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Re: sharpness issue

Postby Wolfgang1 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:12 am

Drew wrote:Sorry... but what am I missing here?
Preview at 100% in Capture One should reflect your Processed file viewed in Photoshop at 100%.
In my test, it does so perfectly.



Thank you Drew, for your comment and efforts. Sorry, in my system the preview at 100% in C1 (ver 7.1.5) actually does NOT reflect the processed file viewed in PS CS6 at 100% for sharpness if the "Disable sharpening" is chosen. Please look here for the comparison:

http://www.wjaekel-foto.de/C1_test/sharpness_issue.html

On my screen (Eizo CG 241) the left file of the screenshot in PS at 100% is clearly less sharp than the right one and less sharp than the preview in C1 shown in the screenshot at 100% below :wink: As described in the comments below the images, the "disable sharpening box" was chosen in C1 prior to the conversion of the left image while for the right image it was not. Please note, the sharpness slider in C1 was set to zero in both cases and both files had been processed identically to 16bit ProphotoRGB. The preview in C1 is the same for both conversions and displayed as shown in the second screenshot - no matter if the "disable sharpening" box is checked or not. So again, the preview doesn't reflect the sharpness of the processed file if the "disable sharpening" box is enabled with the processed file being less sharp than the preview while the preview and the converted file are the same for sharpness if the box is unchecked.
I double checked this conflict on my second machine with C1pro ver 6.2 converting the files to PS CS3 and I see the same issue there. I also tried the conversion of different Raw- files from different Canon cameras. It's always the same. So either there's something wrong in my understanding of C1 or in my setting on both machines and versions of C1 - or it's a bug in the algorithm.

Wolfgang
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Re: sharpness issue

Postby Drew » Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:45 am

Wolfgang1 wrote:...or it's a bug in the algorithm.


I'd venture to guess it's something overlooked or incorrect on your system(s). I've got plenty of test systems here and none show what you're displaying. Follow up with your case and we'll get you sorted out.
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Re: sharpness issue

Postby mli20 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:07 am

Reading Wolfgang it is not clear if he is referring to:

- Lens Tab Sharpness (Lens Correction Tool)
- Detail Tab Sharpening (Sharpness Tool)
- Adjustment Tab Sharpening (Sharpness Tool)

Process Recipe Disable Sharpening seems only to disable Detail Tab Sharpening.

MIght any of this account for the apparent confusion?

Cheers,
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Re: sharpness issue

Postby Wolfgang1 » Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:25 pm

Many thanks Mogens, your list and consideration made me repeatedly check all those tabs and tools again which obviously pointed me to the solution of the conflict :D :
I was in fact referring to the option of the Adjustment Tab sharpening (Disable sharpening) and to the Lens Tab Sharpness (set to zero) but found that the setting of the third option (Detail Tab Sharpening) has been left at default after the installation. I did not reflect this tab since I prefer to do all sharpening in PS. Beyond this, I have been of the opinion that the option of "disable sharpening" should mirror the processed file in the preview so that the preview and the processed file ALWAYS should be identical for sharpness as others had postulated. However, in consequence of the setting in the Detail Sharpening, the preview in C1 always was sharpened while the processed file in PS was not though the sharpening was disabled in the adjustment tab. Anyway, if the sharpening is set to zero in the lens tab AND in the Detail tab and the sharpening is disabled in the adjustment tab, the preview in C1 and the processed file in PS are in fact the same for sharpness now as Drew had shown. I’m sorry for the misleading and thank all of you for your help and support.

Nevertheless it would be less confusing and a suggestion for a future update, if the disabling of the sharpening in the adjustment tab (recipe) would also automatically switch off all sharpening in the C1- preview and not just in the process recipe so that you don’t have to check and adapt the setting in 3 different tabs to get an identical result of the preview and the output in case you choose not to presharpen your files in C1.

Best regards

Wolfgang
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Re: sharpness issue

Postby SFA » Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:48 pm

Wolfgang,

As I understand it the Sharpening in the Lens Tab is always off by default but has a specific purpose to do with Technical cameras although it will work with others.

You can also create a 'Style' for your camera to be applied as a default that would turn off the Sharpening Tool by setting the value to zero.

In that situation it would only leave the tick box in the recipe to bother about but since no sharpening would be applied in the earlier process (if I have my understanding right) it probably would not matter whether the tick box was ticked or not.

You might also have to give some thought to Detail sharpening in any local adjustments used by I have the impression that you probably would not use them anyway. I thought it best to mention the point for completeness.

HTH.


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Re: sharpness issue

Postby NN635714464805671311UL » Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:43 pm

Hi,

Wolfgang is right. I've the same problem: I work in reprography and I absolutely need a no-sharpened image. So I analysed a Tiff created with Capture One pro 8 with the option 'disable sharpening' on the process tool. My MTF10 is 5.9 and my MTF50 is 3.8 - however, this number is an half of MTF10 if there's no sharpening during conversion.

A solution?

Nicolas
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