Where to, now?

Discussions about Phase One Media Pro and Media Pro SE

Re: Where to, now?

Postby syncrasy » Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:53 pm

HansDeZomers wrote:
syncrasy wrote:Just realized that Robert E's advice includes the possibility of converting nested Catalog Sets to hierarchical keywords (rather than my convoluted naming process above), then exporting the annotations. Would those be ingested properly into PSu or other software (obviously as keywords, but at least recognizing the hierarchy of the Catalog Sets)?


Catalog Sets are part of an organizing concept, while keywords are for cataloging/searching. I would not convert catalog sets to keywords unless there's no other way to carry that information over. PhotoSupreme has a script that converts Catalog Sets to its equivalent Portfolio Collections in PhotoSupreme. Why not use those? PaulDymond posted some comments about it here and at the IDimager forum, which did lead to an update of the script. You could try the script first. https://forum.idimager.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=27300


Hans, I understand the difference between Catalog Sets and keywords. Because Paul had reported that PSu's migration script did not work, I meant simply to convey RobertE's suggestion to "convert" Catalog Sets to keywords temporarily, for migration purposes only, then reconstruct the Catalog Sets as Portfolio Collections after migration. I wasn't aware that PSu has since updated the migration script. That's great. Unless I missed it, Paul didn't update his comments to indicate that the script had been updated.
— Mark
Camera & Computer: Nikon D500, D7100 • Mac Pro (mid 2010), various OSs
DAM: Media Pro SE
Image Editors: Nikon Capture NX 2, NX-D • Photoshop CS6

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Re: Where to, now?

Postby RobiWan » Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:19 pm

syncrasy wrote:Because Paul had reported that PSu's migration script did not work,
...
...
Paul didn't update his comments to indicate that the script had been updated.


I don't understand why you just don't try it yourself. What doesn't work by Paul doesn't automatically work by everyone else.
And the best - if something should not work - ask Hert
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Re: Where to, now?

Postby syncrasy » Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:34 pm

RobiWan wrote:
syncrasy wrote:Because Paul had reported that PSu's migration script did not work,
...
...
Paul didn't update his comments to indicate that the script had been updated.


I don't understand why you just don't try it yourself. What doesn't work by Paul doesn't automatically work by everyone else.
And the best - if something should not work - ask Hert


Simple answer: I am not currently evaluating PSu because it doesn't have a feature I need, but I wanted to help Paul in case he was still trying to get it to work. As I have since learned (by looking around the PSu forums), the migration script was not coded properly (by Hert's own admission), and Hert posted a new version to address the problem. This happened all within a couple days, so I was not blaming Paul for not reporting every new experience; I was merely letting Hans know why I had posted RobertE's trick.
— Mark
Camera & Computer: Nikon D500, D7100 • Mac Pro (mid 2010), various OSs
DAM: Media Pro SE
Image Editors: Nikon Capture NX 2, NX-D • Photoshop CS6

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Re: Where to, now?

Postby roberte » Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:18 am

HansDeZomers wrote:Catalog Sets are part of an organizing concept, while keywords are for cataloging/searching.

Use catalog sets for whatever you like or not at all if you wish. Sets are searchable and can be scripted.

Keywords are part of a standard so good for metadata roundtripping or moving to other systems. *Hierarchical* keywords are not part of the IPTC standard so don't have the same interoperability as flat keywords. Most software vendors I know rely on the Adobe XMP namespace for hierarchical keywords.
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Re: Where to, now?

Postby Paul Dymond » Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:27 am

Hi all, sorry busy with work and hadn’t had time to check in. I see the script has been updated now but haven’t had a chance to give it a whirl.
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Re: Where to, now?

Postby syncrasy » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:43 pm

myotis wrote:I did try Fotostation, but it isn't a DAM as it relies on the browsing images in the file system and only catalogues keywords and saves searches. Unless there was something I missed when trying to set it up.. I really liked the program, but as a browser based application it was just too slow for me.


roberte wrote:FotoStation is definitely a solid DAM system that scales to enterprise with millions of images. Fotoware's target audience was newspaper and magazines and the standalone version was bundled with my original Nikon D1 in the 1999.


FotoStation wrote:Unlike many database-based asset management systems, FotoStation does not need to import pictures from your drive into a special database for you to be able to work with them. When you use FotoStation as a stand-alone product, without a connection to other FotoWare server applications, you can simply point it to a folder on a local or a network drive to display the pictures stored within.


Okay, for the sake of this discussion, let's just say FotoStation is a browser-type, non-database, DAM system. The feature set is comparable to most database-based DAMs (see FotoStation editions - comparison).

I think I can get around the speed issue (that Graham mentions) by setting up an "Archive" in FotoStation to focus only on my media folder. (I think the "Archive" section could act as a collection of all one's catalogs.) If that's true, other than losing the ability to archive offline media, what are the practical drawbacks of using the FotoStation browser (vs. Media Pro catalog)? (Graham, could you expand what you mean by "only catalogs keywords"?)
— Mark
Camera & Computer: Nikon D500, D7100 • Mac Pro (mid 2010), various OSs
DAM: Media Pro SE
Image Editors: Nikon Capture NX 2, NX-D • Photoshop CS6

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Re: Where to, now?

Postby myotis » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:17 pm

syncrasy wrote:Okay, for the sake of this discussion, let's just say FotoStation is a browser-type, non-database, DAM system. The feature set is comparable to most database-based DAMs (see FotoStation editions - comparison).

I think I can get around the speed issue (that Graham mentions) by setting up an "Archive" in FotoStation to focus only on my media folder. (I think the "Archive" section could act as a collection of all one's catalogs.) If that's true, other than losing the ability to archive offline media, what are the practical drawbacks of using the FotoStation browser (vs. Media Pro catalog)? (Graham, could you expand what you mean by "only catalogs keywords"?)


If you could get round the speed issue, Fotostation looked good, as I think I said, I don't have the fastest computer in the world.

In terms of only cataloguing keywords, I meant that it doesn't generate a catalogue with optimised previews and index files like Media Pro does, but only an index (that I obviously called a catalogue) that contains all the metadata associated with each image, and the searches are based on this index. This was very fast, but I then had sit and wait while it painfully slowly rendered the previews.

Graham
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Re: Where to, now?

Postby syncrasy » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:48 pm

myotis wrote:
syncrasy wrote:Okay, for the sake of this discussion, let's just say FotoStation is a browser-type, non-database, DAM system. The feature set is comparable to most database-based DAMs (see FotoStation editions - comparison).

I think I can get around the speed issue (that Graham mentions) by setting up an "Archive" in FotoStation to focus only on my media folder. (I think the "Archive" section could act as a collection of all one's catalogs.) If that's true, other than losing the ability to archive offline media, what are the practical drawbacks of using the FotoStation browser (vs. Media Pro catalog)? (Graham, could you expand what you mean by "only catalogs keywords"?)


If you could get round the speed issue, Fotostation looked good, as I think I said, I don't have the fastest computer in the world.

In terms of only cataloguing keywords, I meant that it doesn't generate a catalogue with optimised previews and index files like Media Pro does, but only an index (that I obviously called a catalogue) that contains all the metadata associated with each image, and the searches are based on this index. This was very fast, but I then had sit and wait while it painfully slowly rendered the previews.

Graham


Ahh, okay, I think I understand you. In my test the "Thumbnail Grid" is very slow to rebuild after changing sort order or some other view property (up to 1 minute for 500 images). But I do notice that once the grid has rebuilt itself, I can review (with arrow keys) the larger previews very quickly in the Preview window (the previews appear to be cached). There's an odd button on the tool bar ("Toggle: Fast Loading or High Quality Thumbnails") but it isn't clear to me what it does.

There's a lot to like about FotoStation... very professional design with DAM features such as virtual collections ("Projects") and extensive metadata tools. It even has customizable Web templates (although I can't find the documentation). Update: hierarchical keywords and custom HTML templates are not available with the single user version of FotoStation. But Media Pro still has the edge (true catalog/thumbnail previews for fast browsing, more clear file renaming dialog, Light Table, hierarchical keywords, etc.), so the search continues.
Last edited by syncrasy on Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
— Mark
Camera & Computer: Nikon D500, D7100 • Mac Pro (mid 2010), various OSs
DAM: Media Pro SE
Image Editors: Nikon Capture NX 2, NX-D • Photoshop CS6

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Re: Where to, now?

Postby myotis » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:44 pm

syncrasy wrote:
Ahh, okay, I think I understand you. In my test the "Thumbnail Grid" is very slow to rebuild after changing sort order or some other view property (up to 1 minute for 500 images). But I do notice that once the grid has rebuilt itself, I can review (with arrow keys) the larger previews very quickly in the Preview window (the previews appear to be cached). There's an odd button on the tool bar ("Toggle: Fast Loading or High Quality Thumbnails") but it isn't clear to me what it does.

There's a lot to like about FotoStation... very professional design with DAM features such as virtual collections ("Projects") and extensive metadata tools. It even has customizable Web templates (although I can't find the documentation). But Media Pro still has the edge (true catalog/thumbnail previews for fast browsing, more clear file renaming dialog, Light Table, hierarchical keywords, etc.), so the search continues.


It was some time ago that I tried it, but it did come across as a well thought out piece of software, but I agree its not a media pro.

It was the grid rebuild that was my issue as it needed to rebuild the previews everytime I launcehed the program. I suspect the fast loading.high quality might be a choice of using the RAW built in Jpeg, or allowing Fotostation to build its own previews.

Good luck with your quest.

Cheers,

Graham
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Re: Where to, now?

Postby Storebridge » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:39 pm

pixelsrzen wrote:This is most disheartening.

(snip)
Paying good money for commercial products that become abandonware on a regular basis really isn't working out all that well. Open source is looking better by the moment. If I find something that looks like a suitable replacement, I'll be sure to circle back and post it here. Nothing I've looked at since I read the announcement email looks promising.

Thanks,

pixelsrzen


Disheartening is right!

Looking on this list: https://www.pdnonline.com/gear/software ... -managers/
I see an open source DAM called Resource Space. Has anyone tried it? https://www.resourcespace.com/

Editing to add: I was dragging my feet on purchasing the upgrade to SE. We have 1.3.2 on our computers and since the licenses were yanked from the store by the time I saw the email announcement, we're stuck with that I guess. I'll have to look in to what that means for OS upgrades etc.
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Re: Where to, now?

Postby syncrasy » Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:35 am

syncrasy wrote:FYI... Robert Edwards, an iView/Media Pro expert who (I think) now uses Lightroom, has posted a very insightful post over in the CO forum in my original Media Pro refugee thread. He points out that Lightroom CC can be used as DAM for free if you let your CC trial expire. The image editor won't work but the DAM portion will still work.

He refers to an article by Peter Krogh, called "Lightroom *never* fully expires" that explains how this works.

I never liked Lightroom's UI, but will probably consider this option out of necessity. I am checking out the Lightroom Classic trial version now.


An observation after my Lr trial ended...

As expected, the Develop and Map modules are disabled. But I notice that the ability to launch an external editor (Edit In...) is gone, i.e., missing from the Photo menu. I can set up my external editor choices in Preferences, but they just aren't available for use by Lr. Is that normal behavior with an expired trial version?
— Mark
Camera & Computer: Nikon D500, D7100 • Mac Pro (mid 2010), various OSs
DAM: Media Pro SE
Image Editors: Nikon Capture NX 2, NX-D • Photoshop CS6

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Re: Where to, now?

Postby Paul Dymond » Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:50 am

syncrasy wrote:
syncrasy wrote:FYI... Robert Edwards, an iView/Media Pro expert who (I think) now uses Lightroom, has posted a very insightful post over in the CO forum in my original Media Pro refugee thread. He points out that Lightroom CC can be used as DAM for free if you let your CC trial expire. The image editor won't work but the DAM portion will still work.

He refers to an article by Peter Krogh, called "Lightroom *never* fully expires" that explains how this works.

I never liked Lightroom's UI, but will probably consider this option out of necessity. I am checking out the Lightroom Classic trial version now.


An observation after my Lr trial ended...

As expected, the Develop and Map modules are disabled. But I notice that the ability to launch an external editor (Edit In...) is gone, i.e., missing from the Photo menu. I can set up my external editor choices in Preferences, but they just aren't available for use by Lr. Is that normal behavior with an expired trial version?


Just out of curiosity, could you do me a big favour and load the LR CC App on to your Apple device if you have one? I'm using it on mine but I have a subscription and I'm curious to know what happens if your subscription runs out and whether you can still use the Library module on the iPad.
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Re: Where to, now?

Postby syncrasy » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:11 am

Paul Dymond wrote:Just out of curiosity, could you do me a big favour and load the LR CC App on to your Apple device if you have one? I'm using it on mine but I have a subscription and I'm curious to know what happens if your subscription runs out and whether you can still use the Library module on the iPad.


Paul, I have only an iPhone (iOS 11.4.1), but I was able to download the app, create an album, add a photo from my camera roll, and add a photo with the camera. I could also edit the camera photo and add ratings. I did not enable cloud services. As far as I can tell, there is no mention of my being a "trial user" (but I am signed in with my Adobe account).

Does that help?

I wonder if the app is a different beast (not affected by the desktop Lr status). Or maybe you'll notice mobile sync will be affected if you use that on your desktop Lr. (??) Wish I could tell you for sure.
— Mark
Camera & Computer: Nikon D500, D7100 • Mac Pro (mid 2010), various OSs
DAM: Media Pro SE
Image Editors: Nikon Capture NX 2, NX-D • Photoshop CS6

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Re: Where to, now?

Postby Paul Dymond » Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:16 am

Thank you so much Mark, that's a great help. Are you able to sync with the Desktop LR at all?

I've been experimenting with the syncing between LR and the app and discovered that nested Collections on the desktop programme do not show up as nested Collections in the app, but as stand alone albums. That could get a bit confusing if you had a lot of nested Collections.
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Re: Where to, now?

Postby syncrasy » Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:55 pm

Paul Dymond wrote:Thank you so much Mark, that's a great help. Are you able to sync with the Desktop LR at all?


I think I probably spoke to soon (this is new territory for me)...

I had Sync turned off on my Lr desktop. After turning Sync on (on Lr desktop), it apparently activated the CC cloud portion, so I am able to sync a Collection to the cloud and the Collection appeared as an album on my iPhone Lr CC app. And I can create an Album on Lr CC app that syncs back to the desktop. But then I notice on the Lr app, under the cloud icon, that my status had changed to "Trial - Days Remaining 30." So it appears that the cloud syncing has its own trial period. (The trial for Lr desktop was only 7 days.) And, I assume, that desktop-to-app syncing will end after 30 days. So I'll have to report back to you in 30 days (or you could try to contact Adobe support to see if they know what will happen in your case).
— Mark
Camera & Computer: Nikon D500, D7100 • Mac Pro (mid 2010), various OSs
DAM: Media Pro SE
Image Editors: Nikon Capture NX 2, NX-D • Photoshop CS6

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