Moire Moire Moire

Questions, comments and suggestions regarding Phase One P+ series and P series digital camera backs.

Moire Moire Moire

Postby Adrian12 » Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:46 pm

Hi Everyone

Am I the only one that is getting really bad Moire?

I shoot with a variety of lenses on a H1 at a variety of apertures and mostly shoot people.

Can anyone offer any third party software to tackle bad pattern moire?

The Phase one plug in only seems to work the Colour not the wave pattern Moire?

Help Please?

I want to make pictures not spend hours correcting capture faults.

What is Phase One doing about this?
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One More Thing.

Postby Adrian12 » Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:50 pm

When everything comes together the P25 H1 produces stunning results.

But the frequency of the Moire is completely unacceptable. I have not heard or seen any moire issues with my Canon EOS 1Ds MK II, so if Canon can get it right, why can't Phase One?

Phase One please don't respond with something about you shouldn't compare cameras or that Phase One files are Pure etc. etc.

The plain and simple truth is that the P25 has some very bad issues with Moire and the Canon doesn't.

I would gladly accept slightly softer images if it meant I didn't have to spend hours retouching problems that the P25 has created.

How long before you have a viable solution?
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Postby damienlovegrove » Sat Feb 05, 2005 7:59 pm

I shoot people on the P25 / H1 combination all the time. I'm genuinely not getting an issue with moire. I'm now on 6000 frames of weddings, portraits and fashion. I use 35mm, 80mm, 120 macro (got it last week) and 210mm. I rarely shoot over f5.6 except in the studio where I'm nearly always on f11. I use RAWs and either 200 or 400 ISO settings. I use 'soft look' in C1. Occasionly on a brides veil or a ballet tutu I've noticed moire but regular fabrics have been good. If between us we can pinpoint the combination of lenses or settings that are regular offenders perhaps something can be done. Perhaps it's the H1 lenses? Are they too sharp? When I shoot on the Fuji S2 I have to add sharpening in Pshop to get an acceptable image. Perhaps if the P25 was 'softer' this might help. I find no aditional sharpening is required and often end up adding a blurred layer at 20% opacity to take the edge away.

Do you have to sharpen the images from the Canon in Pshop? It may be a softer look for the P25 is the answer.
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Postby Adrian12 » Sun Feb 06, 2005 2:23 am

Thanks for the reply Damien.

I have been getting Moire on nearly every shoot I do. You say you barely get any? I usually shoot at 100 ISO and use 35,50,80 and 150. Still waiting for the 120.

I used to think it was mostly the 80 or 150 that were the problem but it has also shown up on the 50. I shoot on a variety of apertures and have had bad Moire even at F8. Maybe I've just been unlucky so far.

My dealer in London has asked Phase One, if there is any lens/aperture combination to be careful of and they have said no. So it seems it can happen at any time depending on lighting, distance to subject and fabric type. Maybe I should try shooting at 200ISO. I always proccess with sharpening disabled.

I don't mind the bit of Colour Moire that occurs occasionally, it's the large wave/banding that's really hard to deal with.

The anoyance is that when it does happen it's very difficult to maintain the integrity of the fabric when retouching. Do you examine your pics at 100% in photoshop?

I will happily e:mail some samples to you.

Thanks

Adrian
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Postby damienlovegrove » Sun Feb 06, 2005 9:11 pm

When I was in TV we had the moire problem all the time. It's just the interference when the frequency of the fabric weavebeats with the frequency of the pixels. The thing is, it was seen instantly in the viewfinder (electronic not optical) and a nudge of the zoom always got rid of it. I mean a nudge, just a very slight adjustment was all that was usually required. A slight change of focus did the trick too. But the leses were conventional focussing so a small focus adjustment effectively zoomed the les as well. Check this zoom while focussing anomolie on your 80mm.

I'd love to see some examples of the problem. The sort of images I shoot are here: http://www.damienlovegrove.com/login.html Just login with the word 'lighting'. I'm sure working at no more than f5.6 usually helps me. If a bit of fabric is at various distances then refocussing probably only moves the moire around. Perhaps some auto detect system could be employed by Phase One and flashed up like the highlight warning blackout bit.

Damien.
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Moire Moire....

Postby GregP » Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:40 pm

I am an architectural and interiors shooter. I often get Moire problems in various fabric textures. The PS plugin does not work. I would love to find a solution to cut down on my retouching time. :(
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Postby Keith Carpenter » Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:36 pm

Sometimes it is difficult to avoid moiré in a capture. Simply put, it is Physics… and we all know it can be a challenge to defy the Laws of Physics.
Because of this, Phase One created the DeMoirize Filter as an Adobe Photoshop plug-in. The tool reduces moiré patterns by recalculating image data. Review the Knowledge Base article #1652 on using this tool.

Try the following to reduce moiré:
:arrow: Change distance to subject
:arrow: Choose a different F-stop to reduce depth of field
:arrow: Select a longer exposure time
:arrow: Hand-hold the camera – vibrations can reduce moiré
:arrow: Change the camera position or slightly angle
:arrow: Use Filters – optical, soft focus, or Caprock

Use the Focus Tool in Capture One to determine if moiré has occurred with a capture. This will develop that portion of the RAW file and is a better image to analyze than the Preview file display. It is possible to see a moiré pattern in the Preview and not in the developed RAW.
Applying large amounts of Unsharp Mask can enhance moiré patterns.

:!: Always view image at 100% in Photoshop.
Different magnifications can show moiré patterns on monitor display that are not actually in the file
:!:

Hope these tactics lessen the occurance for all of you.

Sincerely,

k c
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Moire

Postby Adrian12 » Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:15 am

Thanks for the comments Keith

However your suggestions pretty much take away the productivity advantages of shooting digitally.

I have tried all of the things you are suggesting whilst shooting. Clients are not impressed when you start changing a composition they love because of moire. secondly with bad moire moving the camera simply moves the moire.

I cannot believe you are suggesting shooting off a tripod! In regards to the cap rock filters this takes too much time to work out which strength of filter is needed. It also defeats the whole point of shooting on medium format.

In regards to physics, well the laws don't seem to apply in Japan in the same way they do in Denmark, I am yet to find Moire on the 1ds MKII.

People are buying the 1DS MKII in huge numbers, Phase One needs to pay more attention to this issue.

Thanks

Adrian Weinbrecht
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Postby Keith Carpenter » Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:58 am

You're welcome... I think.

Well, believe, because these suggestions have helped studios complete a job, including hand-holding the camera. Never did I claim these will work for all, and again, they have worked for some.

The digital age has presented a multitude of variables and some dilemmas that were non-existent with film. In a Perfect World you would not alter shooting techniques one bit, but this is not a reality. This age too has created some false expectations, i.e. for some, getting an image in 4 - 6 seconds is not fast enough!

I guess I don't see how altering shooting methods for a capture affects productivity. Digital workflow begins at capture. And if a shooting method is not working, then 'homework' must be done to determine the variable that makes it so.

I'll give you that Canon does an outstanding job by making their own CMOS sensor and DIGIC processor. How it nearly eliminates moire with in-camera processing is impressive. If a shoot will allow a DSLR then use one, if not, then a little more effort in medium and large format digital back shooting methodology is warranted for difficult jobs.

Sincerely,

k c
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Postby riolok » Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:40 pm

Adrian:

Are you only previewing these images or processing them and finding moire? I have found that moire will show up in my preview file that does not exist in the final processed. We are not having any problems with this.
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Re:

Postby Paul2 » Mon May 02, 2005 10:54 pm

I tried out the P25 last year and found terrible moire instantly on all my test files. its the reason I haven't bought it. I can afford it, but can't live with the issue. not just fabrics - a casual nyc city view showed it in grills, distant brickwork, air conditioners, etc.

The responses here are poor, and reading between the lines, a tacit admission that, yes, its a real problem on this back. (as is the release of the de-moire filter for PS)

I too have no such issues on the 1Dsmk2 (though I did have them on the Mk1) they fixed it somehow.

I have the $ to invest, and the desire for 22Mp, but wont go there until this is fixed. Phase One please get on the case.
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Moire...

Postby NN247001UL » Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:39 pm

I have been working with digital captures for about a decade. I recently purchased the P25 after years of using the Leaf Volare, the Leaf C-MOST, and the Leaf Valeo 11 systems. I have not seen a capture as clean and sharp from any other system that rivals those created by the P25 or H25. That said, the improvements in quality seem to have greatly increased the incidence of moire in my images.

I understand the physics but the fact remains that it is very difficult to work in a production oriented enviroment while reviewing and possibly tweeking every image to mitigate moire. I often photograph clothing, on figure and laydown, in a catalog workflow. Budgets are tight and shot counts need to stay high. Unfortunately, in my experience, textiles generate the worst moire. I have tested most of the methods mentioned by Keith, but none yet have completely removed the moire and furthermore, they are often impractical.

Distance to the subject has made no difference. If I frame up a garment to fill frame and I am in sharp focus, I get moire on some fabrics no matter how far I pull back. Of course, if I move in tight enough for the lens to enlarge the weave, moire disappears but most of the product is out of frame.

Changing f-stops to reduce depth of field limits the versatlity of the system I purchased specifically to increase my depth of field. Furthermore, this adjustment has made no significant difference to the moire in areas that are in focus.

I have not tested lengthening the exposure time yet but I will. I suspect the concept is that there might be some camera shake with a longer exposure and therefore less detail to moire. If so, this is counter productive.

Hand holding does not solve the problem. Moire is all about how the grid of the textile lines up with the matrix of the chip. So, if I am shooting on figure at a shutter speed that will actually stop action and give me a clear image, I still get moire in what ever part of the garment that lines up in the \"right\" way with the chip. Also, the bulk of my work is shot with a view camera posted up to nine feet and pointing straight down.

I have tried changing the camera angle and position, as well as rotating the products a few degrees in either direction with very limited success. Only when more dramatic shifts are made (up to 45 degrees) do I see a significant reduction in moire and only in the areas of the garment that no longer generally line up with the sensor. Other areas may then line up and have moire.

I have also had limited sucess in reducing moire with filters. Soft focus filters, once again, defeat the purpose of the 22 mega pixel back but the Caprock filters seem to have some effect without a significant reduction in image quality. They do not completely remove the moire.

So, I am heartened by the release of COPro 3.7.2 with the new Moire Tool but this solution still involves tons of post production image review and manipulation while only resolving the color moire and not the banded pattern moire.

There needs to be a complete solution out there besides reverting to an inferior chip.

[img]
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http://homepage.mac.com/themcthings/.cv ... ple_02.jpg
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Postby Paul2 » Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:50 pm

I'm hoping that the P45 with its finer pixel pitch will significantly reduce the problem.

going from a 1Ds to 1Ds2 made a big difference, and hopefully it will here too.

sad to see that in months there has been update from Phase One. Is the P45 any better? does a finer pixel pitch resolve some of the issue ?
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Postby Ulf » Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:17 am

P45/P30 will produce less moiré when the pixel size will decrease also how about upgrading to Capture One 3.7.2 which include the new built in moiré remover.
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Postby olo1 » Sat Sep 17, 2005 12:52 pm

I shoot tons of lingerie often with layers of chiffon fabrics and hardly ever have moire problems...

I do use H1+P25 and mostly 80mm and 150 and f stop 5,6 1/2 up to 8 not more not less.

I do see moire effects in the preview picture in C1 but once the focus tool \"develops\" the moire spot it is completely gone...

cheers Nicolas
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