tilt and shift

Discussions regarding Phase One 645 AF and Mamiya 645AFDIII Camera

tilt and shift

Postby fabrizio cicconi » Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:48 pm

Why don't you make a tilt shift tool where can be mount all the lenses?
In Mamiya RZ too?
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Re: tilt and shift

Postby Gary32 » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:41 pm

Fabrizzio, I guess because it would act as a multiplier and increase the effective focal length, plus it would require an enormous amount of development resource to produce, and at the moment Phase/Mamiya seem to be desperately trying to make the leaf shutter lenses that they've promised but not yet delivered.

However, I agree that more work is needed with the tilt/shift. I bought the Phase 45mm T/S and I wouldn't recommend it. It's a re-badged Hartblei at a much, much higher price which neither the mechanical construction nor the optical performance warrant. It might have been acceptable for film, but with a P65+ it's just not up to the challenge.
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Re: tilt and shift

Postby fabrizio cicconi » Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:30 pm

Ok, I'm agree that phase One Is trying to make really good camera and spend a lot of energy!
But with a Back that cost so much ( I finish next year to pay my P25 after 4 years...)
I should "pretend" solutions that can give me more possibility, and use my old camera too.
Not all photographer wage so much money, above all in Italy... Oh Sorry Fabrizio Corona wage a lot, but doesn't use DB... :lol:
Now I use contax, that is a good camera with "good" lenses. I'm happy to know about the new lenses, but It will be great mount them on RZ..
Thank you and sorry if I'm so polemical
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Re: tilt and shift

Postby Paul2 » Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:08 pm

if Phase has a new arrangement with Schneider, they should get them to re-release the Schneider PCS SA 55mm shift lens (was released for Bronica 645 and Rollei) which has tilt +shift + rise ALL independent. an amazing optical lens too designed specifically for 645 - although it cost 8000 euros new!

probably the upcoming Hartblei/ Zeiss/ Phase lens will be good, but I suspect only have tilt+shift - not rise/fall. Also would have been nice to keep it in the Schnieder family of lenses, rather than add a third manufacturer to the line-up.
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Re: tilt and shift

Postby Gary32 » Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:58 pm

Paul2 wrote:but I suspect only have tilt+shift - not rise/fall.


"shift" is just another word for "rise/fall"
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Re: tilt and shift

Postby Paul2 » Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:21 pm

Gary32 wrote:"shift" is just another word for "rise/fall"

no its not.

if you have used a large format camera, you will know that the front lens panel can go up and down: 'Rise/Fall', AND go left or right: 'Shift' (plus it can tilt, but lets leave that aside)

a simple shift lens only has one direction of movement
a full shift lens has two - so you can go across and/or up-down independently.

why?
imagine that you are photographing a building with your Phase Camera system. You want the building to appear flat with no converging verticals, so you put the camera level and use rise to get the top of the building in without tilting the camera back.
But if you find there is a car or lamppost in the way that you want to shift out, or more likely, you want to stitch two images together for superior quality, you need movement in a second plane - left/right shift, at the same time as the rise on the front, to give you the full range you would have on an LF camera.

So - a simple shift lens can only move in one direction - cross OR rise/fall
a full pro PQ lens can move independently in two directions so you can correct verticals AND horizontals at the same time.
much better.

thats why the Schneider lens is far superior to a normal single direction shift. it can do both directions, and tilt!
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Re: tilt and shift

Postby Gary32 » Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:54 pm

Paul2 wrote:
Gary32 wrote:"shift" is just another word for "rise/fall"

no its not.

if you have used a large format camera, you will know that the front lens panel can go up and down: 'Rise/Fall', AND go left or right: 'Shift' (plus it can tilt, but lets leave that aside)

a simple shift lens only has one direction of movement
a full shift lens has two - so you can go across and/or up-down independently.

why?
imagine that you are photographing a building with your Phase Camera system. You want the building to appear flat with no converging verticals, so you put the camera level and use rise to get the top of the building in without tilting the camera back.
But if you find there is a car or lamppost in the way that you want to shift out, or more likely, you want to stitch two images together for superior quality, you need movement in a second plane - left/right shift, at the same time as the rise on the front, to give you the full range you would have on an LF camera.

So - a simple shift lens can only move in one direction - cross OR rise/fall
a full pro PQ lens can move independently in two directions so you can correct verticals AND horizontals at the same time.
much better.

thats why the Schneider lens is far superior to a normal single direction shift. it can do both directions, and tilt!


The Phase One 45mm f3.5 TS (Tilt/Shift) can be shifted 12mm in any direction; up, down, sideways, and diagonally. Within the constraints of the image circle it will stitch at the same time as rise is employed, so "shift" is just another word for "rise/fall". Incidentally, as well as using the P65+ with the P645 I also use this back on a Linhof M679cs, and have used large format cameras for thirty years.
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Re: tilt and shift

Postby Paul2 » Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:01 pm

ugh - then if you are so experienced with LF cameras, why dont you get that moving a camera lens in TWO directions is more useful than one? and that is why you can do that on every LF system.

Yes a shift lens can be rotated (usually) so it can shift horizontally or vertically (or at a random diagonal), BUT it is one of those directions and only one. IF you want some rise on the front to keep verticals perfect, then you cant have cross stitch on the back, as you've used your movement that way. a 2 direction stitch can do that perfectly - like in the example I gave - both vertical and horizontal at the same time.

anyways. had enough of this - have made my point clearly and if you decline to see the obviousness of it, then thats as far as I can go.
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Re: tilt and shift

Postby fabrizio cicconi » Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:16 pm

Ok Pratically... I can understand tha PO make a big work for al the great news that offer at the moment!
I have a friend artitectural photographer that use canon with all the tilt /shift lenses, canon and nikon with adaptor. He has 24, 28, 35, 45, 90...
Why PO that cost more than canon, doesn't make a tilt/shift adapter for all the lenses like Hasselblad? it could be easyer than make different lenses (45, 55, 35 120 ecc...).
I don't have enough money for to buy an arca swiss or linhof with all the lenses after spent so many money for a DB.
Another way make an adaptor for mamiya 645 lenses on mamya RZ 67 (great camera time ago!!) RZ have a tilt shift adapter...not for artitectural pix...
Last work I made some still life to some object and for make the all focus object I made 3 shot with 3 different focus back, middle and front, and with photoshop I made the post production for to make a all focus picture. Is it possible? For me no! Too much post productions hour that nobody pay to me...
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